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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Jan 26th 2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: We just have the Latin Mass in our area on the first and last Sundays of each month, plus ...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

We just have the Latin Mass in our area on the first and last Sundays of each month, plus every Wednesday morning at 7:00 am. So I go to the Novus Ordo Mass on the other Sundays. Aside from the Latin and the scala that helps us sing the Mass I found that there are four main differences.
1. The Latin Mass starts with Psalm 42 and the prayers at the foot of the Altar before the priest ascends the Altar.
2. The Latin Mass still uses the same readings year after year so some people still use the same Missal that they have been using for say 40 years.
3. The Last Gospel after Communion, John 1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ..." I have read that the Last Gospel was added during the Albigensian heresy of the 1200s because heretics were infiltrating the Catholic priesthood and preaching heresy.
4. The prayers after a Low Mass, 3 Hail Mary's, Hail Holy Queen, St. Michael the Archangel prayer and Most Sacred Heart of Jesus ... Have mercy on us, 3 times.

The sung Low Latin Mass is beautiful. I believe it's called a Missa Cantata.

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No.4 is not and has not been an official part of the Mass. That does not mean there is anything wrong with those prayers. Just that they are not, have never been and will probably never be an official part of the Mass.

Oh! and by the way similar to your No. 2, the readings in the Novus Ordo have been the same for 40 + years. All that has changed is the official translation used in English speaking countries. So someone who bought a Novus Ordo missal then could still be using it today at least as far as the readings are concerned..

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Jan 26th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: No.4 is not and has not been an official part of the Mass. That does not mean there is an...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

No.4 is not and has not been an official part of the Mass. That does not mean there is anything wrong with those prayers. Just that they are not, have never been and will probably never be an official part of the Mass.

Oh! and by the way similar to your No. 2, the readings in the Novus Ordo have been the same for 40 + years. All that has changed is the official translation used in English speaking countries. So someone who bought a Novus Ordo missal then could still be using it today at least as far as the readings are concerned..

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The Leonine prayers (No. 4) were recommended by Pope Leo XIII to be said after every low mass for the intention of the liberation of the Vatican from the control of the Italian govt after the conquest of the Papal States by Garibaldi and the Masonic forces that fought for a united Italy under a secular government. After the Concordat with the Italian government that instituted Vatican City as an independent nation, the prayers were said for the conversion of Russia.

Thus, there is no reason at all for a priest so inclinded not to be able to do the Leonine prayers as a devotion after a low ordinary mass along with the faithful. Given every other "innovation," I'm surprised nobody has, other than for the reason that it wasn't one to begin with.

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Jan 26th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: No.4 is not and has not been an official part of the Mass. That does not mean there is an...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

No.4 is not and has not been an official part of the Mass. That does not mean there is anything wrong with those prayers. Just that they are not, have never been and will probably never be an official part of the Mass.

Oh! and by the way similar to your No. 2, the readings in the Novus Ordo have been the same for 40 + years. All that has changed is the official translation used in English speaking countries. So someone who bought a Novus Ordo missal then could still be using it today at least as far as the readings are concerned..

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Only for one of three years in the ordinary form, if that. The ordinary form uses a three year Lectionary for the Sundays, and a Two Year one for the Feria days.

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Jan 26th 2013 new

(Quote) Steven-706921 said: The Austro-Hungarian Empire was a pretty significant one openly eliminated by Wilson.
(Quote) Steven-706921 said:

The Austro-Hungarian Empire was a pretty significant one openly eliminated by Wilson.

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You're avoiding the question.

The accusation was made that "FDR abolished all the Catholic monarchies of Europe."

When challenged for example, the only one given was a man who didn't assume the throne until after FDR was dead.

Wilson's actions do not address this issue.

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Jan 26th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: (Quote) Mike-41230 said: We just have the Latin Mass in our area o...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Quote:
Mike-41230 said:

We just have the Latin Mass in our area on the first and last Sundays of each month, plus every Wednesday morning at 7:00 am. So I go to the Novus Ordo Mass on the other Sundays. Aside from the Latin and the scala that helps us sing the Mass I found that there are four main differences.
1. The Latin Mass starts with Psalm 42 and the prayers at the foot of the Altar before the priest ascends the Altar.
2. The Latin Mass still uses the same readings year after year so some people still use the same Missal that they have been using for say 40 years.
3. The Last Gospel after Communion, John 1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ..." I have read that the Last Gospel was added during the Albigensian heresy of the 1200s because heretics were infiltrating the Catholic priesthood and preaching heresy.
4. The prayers after a Low Mass, 3 Hail Mary's, Hail Holy Queen, St. Michael the Archangel prayer and Most Sacred Heart of Jesus ... Have mercy on us, 3 times.

The sung Low Latin Mass is beautiful. I believe it's called a Missa Cantata.


No.4 is not and has not been an official part of the Mass. That does not mean there is anything wrong with those prayers. Just that they are not, have never been and will probably never be an official part of the Mass.

Oh! and by the way similar to your No. 2, the readings in the Novus Ordo have been the same for 40 + years. All that has changed is the official translation used in English speaking countries. So someone who bought a Novus Ordo missal then could still be using it today at least as far as the readings are concerned..

--hide--

Well Paul # 4 does read "The prayers after a Low Mass". But with that said the Leonine prayers are in my Ecclesia Dei Latin-English Booklet Missal for praying the Traditional Mass, right after the Last Gospel. It was printed in Oct. 2007.

And no Paul, the readings from this year's New Saint Joseph's Sunday Missal that we use at the Novus Ordo Mass for tomorrow, the 3rd Sunday in Ordinary Time are not the same readings from last year's New Saint Joseph's Sunday Missal for the 3rd Sunday in Ordinary Time. I have them both opened in front of me right now. But like Steven says, I'm sure if I kept the New Saint Joseph's Sunday Missal for the year 2010 the readings would be the same as what are in this year's. No big deal though, every parish around here sells the upcoming year's New Saint Joseph's Sunday Missal just before Advent for about four bucks.

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Jan 27th 2013 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: So, you make an accusation that FDR abolished "all" the Catholic monarchies in ...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

So, you make an accusation that FDR abolished "all" the Catholic monarchies in Europe then, when asked to list them, you list a single instance where a king lost his throne a year after FDR was dead, and by way of evidence you link to a wikipedia article that barely even mentions the existence of the U.S., let alone FDR, let alone offers any suggestion that FDR had anything to do with it?

Your coming to a lot of conclusions here that are completely unsubstantiated. The number of Muslims in Europe doesn't prove anything one way or another about any of the monarchies there. FDR's political and religious leanings do not prove anything about actual actions undertaken.

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No accusations, just historical facts according to the timelines. FDR was an enemy of the church as are all central bankers who have not only infilitrated but done quite a bit to damage and weaken our church.

The Muslim immigration into Europe and threat to the church is very real and should be a concern to any Christian. The Monarchies worked as a group united in Christ. If one falls then they all fall. All the RCM were always aware of this.

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Jan 27th 2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: There have been 20 Ecumenical Councils since the First Council of Nicaea. These are me...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:

There have been 20 Ecumenical Councils since the First Council of Nicaea. These are merely tools used, or not used, at the discretion of the Roman Pontiff, to assist him in making solemn judgments. The First Vatican Council lays this out pretty well.

What people call VII or Vatican II is a short-hand way of rendering "The Second Vatican Council." It was an Ecumenical Council held in the 1960's ('62-'65) in which the Holy Father made no recourse to infallible/dogmatic definition, but the Council rather was an attempt to elucidate pastoral matters and doctrinal matters to do with the function of the Church in the contemporary world.

The SSPX was approved as a "society" within the Church in 1971 by the prefect for the Sacred Congregation of the Clergy, Cardinal Wright. It remained a society, albeit with continually strained relations with Rome, within the Church until 1988 when Abp. Lefebvre and the four bishops he consecrated excommunicated themselves from the Church. This consecration was done in defiance and disobedience to the expressed will of Bl. Pope John Paul II. When that happened, a group of priests loyal to Rome who still wished to keep the stringent standards of liturgy, morality and doctrine had recourse to Rome and were designated the Fraternal Society of St. Peter. They (the FSSP) have offered the Extraordinary Form (Tridentine) Mass in various places all over the US to this day, and remain in good standing with Rome.

VII is not a sect, it's a fallible Ecumenical Council, and all that the SSPX appear to be today was a tool to boost men's egos rather than save souls. The hallmark of a Christian is obedience, remember.

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Thanks for your good posts Chelsea, I appreciate your help. I have one question though..what do you mean when you said that the SSPX appears today to be a tool to boost men's egos?

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Jan 27th 2013 new

My take on Chelsea's comment that "the SSPX appears today to be a tool to boost men's egos" ....


When bishops and priests of SSPX (as well as orders of sisters, for example, in the U.S.) behave in
defiance and disobedience to the expressed will of the pope, then they are indeed attempting to boost their own egos. If they want to be Catholic, then they should be obedient to the pope. Apparently, they think that they know better (what is best for the church) than the true successor of Peter. That sounds like ego-boosting to me.


Just my thoughts.


Ed

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Jan 27th 2013 new

(Quote) John-711000 said: Thanks for your good posts Chelsea, I appreciate your help. I have one question though..w...
(Quote) John-711000 said:

Thanks for your good posts Chelsea, I appreciate your help. I have one question though..what do you mean when you said that the SSPX appears today to be a tool to boost men's egos?

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You're welcome, John. What I mean when I state that the SSPX appears today to be a tool to boost men's egos rather than save souls is this:

While the four Bishops which Abp. Lefebvre consecrated have since had their excommunications lifted, they still refuse to enter a regular situation in the canonical sense. The only reason that I can see which fits this refusal is that staying apart from Rome is a means of differentiation that the SSPX Bishops have to put focus on themselves as necessary to the Church. This is the notion that without them, that is, the four SSPX Bishops, the institution of Jesus Christ on earth (the Catholic Church) would fail. That, however, is hardly the case. Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, is omnipotent; it is not possible for the work of the salvation of man which he instituted to fail. No one single Bishop is of absolute necessity; even the Bishop of Rome, the Supreme Pontiff and successor of St. Peter, dies and is replaced in the course of time.

I have read hemmings and hawings of these Bishops that they cannot sell out and concede to Rome, that they cannot accept the preamble proposed to them in good conscience. Well, maybe they truly cannot accept the preamble given them in good conscience, especially if it deviates in any fashion from what the First Vatican Council defined as the standard by which to judge what is of the faith or not. However, they can disband the society and send their congregants to the FSSP communities, which do have regular faculties from Rome. They could command their priests not to offer Mass, not to hear confessions outside danger of death, not to witness/preside over marriage outside danger of death, etc. Then, they could go and stand on the Pope's doorstep, so to speak, and ask him to give them regular faculties with which to further the mission of Holy Mother Church.

We're not seeing any of this go on. People with accepted authority who care for the souls of others do not allow them to continue on in error, yet the SSPX Bishops are allowing the error to continue by allowing their priests to continue to offer the sacraments in an ordinary and public fashion when they and the priests do not have regular faculties to do so. This behavior only makes sense if it is stemming from self-importance, rather than a care to save souls.

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Jan 27th 2013 new

You're giving me a lot of homework Chelsea smile lol thanks for the post ED.

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