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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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One of the modern day issues that the Church is grappling with is acceptance of Catholic teaching and belief in the Real Presence. The reasons for this are numerous and cannot be summarized in a paragraph or two.


Yesterday, I watched part of a speech on YouTube by a man who appeared to be well known in the USA (not by me but I googled him later) in a Church. His talk was fine and included discussion of the Real Presence. However, all the associated carry on, including encouraging his wife to stand up and receive a round of applause (for being his wife) made me think that while all this was going on that the theatrics were actually taking the focus away from the Church being the home of the Holy Eucharist. Is it appropriate to have concerts and other events in a Church and does that have an impact in dumbing down the belief in the Sacred Species being in the Tabernacle? Should we be having chats inside a church and generally acting casually or does Christ deserve better?

I can't stand wearing a suit but I am much more productive when I get dressed up and go to an office rather than work in the casual environment at home. Is nurturing our Faith similar?






Jan 27th 2013 new

(Quote) Gabor-19025 said: One of the modern day issues that the Church is grappling with is acceptance of Catholic teaching ...
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said:

One of the modern day issues that the Church is grappling with is acceptance of Catholic teaching and belief in the Real Presence. The reasons for this are numerous and cannot be summarized in a paragraph or two.


Yesterday, I watched part of a speech on YouTube by a man who appeared to be well known in the USA (not by me but I googled him later) in a Church. His talk was fine and included discussion of the Real Presence. However, all the associated carry on, including encouraging his wife to stand up and receive a round of applause (for being his wife) made me think that while all this was going on that the theatrics were actually taking the focus away from the Church being the home of the Holy Eucharist. Is it appropriate to have concerts and other events in a Church and does that have an impact in dumbing down the belief in the Sacred Species being in the Tabernacle? Should we be having chats inside a church and generally acting casually or does Christ deserve better?

I can't stand wearing a suit but I am much more productive when I get dressed up and go to an office rather than work in the casual environment at home. Is nurturing our Faith similar?

--hide--

I find in my experience of life that people have completely lost the division between profane and sacred. The resultant being that the Churches wherein resides the tabernacle closed upon the sacred species is in no way treated differently than the Church hall or a dance hall for that matter.

Is it appropriate to profane a consecrated space with dance hall behaviour such as raucous laughter and applause at either human achievement or spectacle? I believe wholeheartedly that it is a grave offense to do so.

There is a time and place for everything good. There is nothing wrong with honouring human achievement or appreciating something spectacular, but that doesn't mean that these things are well-done before Christ, the King, in the tabernacle and in the naves of Churches (much less the ambo). There is nothing wrong with having a chat, but the house of prayer is not the correct place in which to do it.

The Council of Trent gave us this little bit regarding behaviour in Churches in its 22nd Session (the "they" refers to Bishops):

"They shall also banish from churches all those kinds of music, in which, whether by the organ, or in the singing, there is mixed up anything lascivious or impure; as also all secular actions; vain and therefore profane conversations, all walking about, noise, and clamour, that so the house of God may be seen to be, and may be called, truly a house of prayer."

Wearing the suit, to borrow from your analogy, is not so much for you, either, as for God and your neighbour. If you do not manifest charity (i.e., wear the suit), are you really being charitable? :)

Jan 27th 2013 new

The only churches I have seen that are used for secular purposes such as concerts are Protestant ones. They allow the space to be used for such things as classical music concerts, where the audience remains seated, but not other types of concerts.

I do remember in high school (a Catholic high school) that the chapel, which was a part of the school building itself (down the hall from the cafeteria
actually) was used by students for music recitals, under the supervision of one of the Sisters. So, no wild secular music or human spectacle there.

I have attended only Novus Ordo masses during my lifetime. All of those masses over the years have been very reverent. During traditional Novus Ordo masses, the only clapping that has ever happened in all of those years that I can think of involved welcoming a newly baptized child
into the parish following the Sacrament of Baptism, and congratulating a 50-year anniversary of the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony for one of the older couples in the parish after they renewed their vows. I wouldn't refer to either of these as a human spectacle or achievement. Sacraments were involved. Humans do attend, however.

Some of the charismatic masses (not my favourite) have been a bit more demonstrative during the hymns (clapping to the music and waving arms in the air). I have not seen anything disrespectful of the Real Presence happen in a Catholic Church ever. While I can appreciate that the TLM has a slightly different tone, I don’t think it is more or less respectful than other masses. It is different, that’s all. Some may prefer one over the other, just as I prefer a traditional Novus Ordo mass over a charismatic one, but it is not superior, and the Catholic Church does not teach that one Catholic Mass is superior to the rest. One can just as easily say that “those who sing pray twice” so singing with great enthusiasm makes you more holy. That still won't get me to go charistmatic masses more often, however. God, in his infinite and superior wisdom, gave me a horrible singing voice, and I do not wish to inflict that on any of my fellow Catholics.

Jan 27th 2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: I find in my experience of life that people have completely lost the division between ...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:

I find in my experience of life that people have completely lost the division between profane and sacred. The resultant being that the Churches wherein resides the tabernacle closed upon the sacred species is in no way treated differently than the Church hall or a dance hall for that matter.

Is it appropriate to profane a consecrated space with dance hall behaviour such as raucous laughter and applause at either human achievement or spectacle? I believe wholeheartedly that it is a grave offense to do so.

There is a time and place for everything good. There is nothing wrong with honouring human achievement or appreciating something spectacular, but that doesn't mean that these things are well-done before Christ, the King, in the tabernacle and in the naves of Churches (much less the ambo). There is nothing wrong with having a chat, but the house of prayer is not the correct place in which to do it.

The Council of Trent gave us this little bit regarding behaviour in Churches in its 22nd Session (the "they" refers to Bishops):

"They shall also banish from churches all those kinds of music, in which, whether by the organ, or in the singing, there is mixed up anything lascivious or impure; as also all secular actions; vain and therefore profane conversations, all walking about, noise, and clamour, that so the house
of God may be seen to be, and may be called, truly a house of prayer."

Wearing the suit, to borrow from your analogy, is not so much for you, either, as for God and your neighbour. If you do not manifest charity (i.e., wear the suit), are you really being charitable? :)

--hide--


Chelsea, I did not expect to read a post like yours written by a young lady. I applaud your post. There is a football term referred to as "white line fever". I feel that when we cross that "white line" and enter a Church we are entering sacred territory and we interact with Our Lord in a very different way to interacting with our friends over a beer in a bar. Many of my friends/associates/relatives don't get that-it's nice to read that you do. Re the last post I don't recall my post or yours making any mention of the Tridentine Mass?

Jan 27th 2013 new

(Quote) Gabor-19025 said: Is it appropriate to have concerts and other events in a Church and does that have an impact in du...
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said:

Is it appropriate to have concerts and other events in a Church and does that have an impact in dumbing down the belief in the Sacred Species being in the Tabernacle? Should we be having chats inside a church and generally acting casually or does Christ deserve better?

I can't stand wearing a suit but I am much more productive when I get dressed up and go to an office rather than work in the casual environment at home. Is nurturing our Faith similar?

--hide--


Gabor, great questions! I agree with Chelsea that there has been a huge step away from the sacred - especially in our Churches. I do believe that Christ deserves better. In fact, here where I live, it is uncommon to kneel for communion unless attending TLM however, as it is an acceptable posture I receive kneeling *in every circumstance* and let me tell you - it freaks quite a few people out. But my feeling is, who am I to receive my Lord standing??


Clapping is a pretty big problem here as well. I prefer not to have clapping in any circumstance during a Mass however, I can see where it is more likely to happen for a baptism or first communion. I try not to let those bother me. However, it bothers me to no end when people clap for the choir. Not because I don't appreciate the choir, but because part of their job at the Mass is to inspire the liturgy with song. I find clapping under that circumstance so distracting.


I am guilty myself of sometimes chatting after Mass, but I really think it would go a long way to retain a sense of reverence if people remained silent until getting out of the Church. Save the chatting for the coffee and - in the church hall!


We need to work hard to bring silence and reverence back to our Churches. I think it must start with ourselves - and perhaps a comment or two to our Pastor would be helpful as well!


Thanks for the good topic. biggrin

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Gabor-19025 said: Chelsea, I did not expect to read a post like yours written by a young lady. I applaud you...
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said:



Chelsea, I did not expect to read a post like yours written by a young lady. I applaud your post. There is a football term referred to as "white line fever". I feel that when we cross that "white line" and enter a Church we are entering sacred territory and we interact with Our Lord in a very different way to interacting with our friends over a beer in a bar. Many of my friends/associates/relatives don't get that-it's nice to read that you do. Re the last post I don't recall my post or yours making any mention of the Tridentine Mass?

--hide--


I have never been to a Latin Rite Mass offered according to the Extraordinary Form (Tridentine), I only know what problems happen there by word of mouth...so, I can't speak to what goes on there other than hearsay.

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Gabor-19025 said: Chelsea, I did not expect to read a post like yours written by a young lady. I applaud you...
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said:



Chelsea, I did not expect to read a post like yours written by a young lady. I applaud your post. There is a football term referred to as "white line fever". I feel that when we cross that "white line" and enter a Church we are entering sacred territory and we interact with Our Lord in a very different way to interacting with our friends over a beer in a bar. Many of my friends/associates/relatives don't get that-it's nice to read that you do. Re the last post I don't recall my post or yours making any mention of the Tridentine Mass?

--hide--

Chelsea seems to be rather well read and is capable of putting together exceptional arguments or other logical trains of thought.

I think Angela was just making a general commentary of different church environments that she has seen in her life.

You do present an interesting argument. Some times I feel rather inclined to point out (as we heard in last week's Gospel) that Christ's first miracle was to turn water into wine at a wedding party, so how "stuffy" could He really be? After all, this is the same Christ who insisted that He was the feet of His disciples.

Now don't get me wrong, I certainly don't think we ought to be taking a totally flippant attitude. I just think some people tend to over do it; they become "Marthas" who are concerned with many things other than sitting at the Lord's feet and listening.

There are other times when I am very annoyed with the actions and attitudes of some of the other people in the church. I am not a fan of clapping, and if you're just going to sit there and talk to your friend about what you did last Friday, why don't you go do that someplace other than the pew right behind me? I didn't come to Mass to listen to you chatter about your life.

Somewhere there is a happy medium between overly rigid and formal and overly causal and relaxed. But I am normally thinking about that in terms of proper decorum in general.

I hadn't ever really thought about the possibility that the actions that take place in the church might be partially responsible for the decrease in the belief in the Real Presence. It doesn't seem like an unreasonable hypothesis.

But on the other hand, like Angela, I don't know that I've seen that much inapproriate behavior in front of the Tabernacle either. However, one of the reasons for that is that in a lot of churches, the Tabernacle has been moved from behind the main alter off to a side chapel somewhere...so how does that fit into the equation. scratchchin

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: I hadn't ever really thought about the possibility that the actions that take place in the chu...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

I hadn't ever really thought about the possibility that the actions that take place in the church might be partially responsible for the decrease in the belief in the Real Presence. It doesn't seem like an unreasonable hypothesis.

--hide--

I tend to think the cause and effect may be the reverse of this: that a diminished belief in the Real Presence is responsible for the less respectful behavior in church.

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Gabor-19025 said: One of the modern day issues that the Church is grappling with is acceptance of Catholic teaching ...
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said:

One of the modern day issues that the Church is grappling with is acceptance of Catholic teaching and belief in the Real Presence. The reasons for this are numerous and cannot be summarized in a paragraph or two.


Yesterday, I watched part of a speech on YouTube by a man who appeared to be well known in the USA (not by me but I googled him later) in a Church. His talk was fine and included discussion of the Real Presence. However, all the associated carry on, including encouraging his wife to stand up and receive a round of applause (for being his wife) made me think that while all this was going on that the theatrics were actually taking the focus away from the Church being the home of the Holy Eucharist. Is it appropriate to have concerts and other events in a Church and does that have an impact in dumbing down the belief in the Sacred Species being in the Tabernacle? Should we be having chats inside a church and generally acting casually or does Christ deserve better?

I can't stand wearing a suit but I am much more productive when I get dressed up and go to an office rather than work in the casual environment at home. Is nurturing our Faith similar?






--hide--

As far as concerts and similar activities: They are allowed and have been common in European Churches for as long as Catholic Church Buildings have existed.

The rules do require that when these activities are to take place, the Blessed Sacrament must be removed from the Tabernacle and placed elsewhere then in the main part of the Church. Temporarily placed in a tabernacle in the sacristy for example. The rules also require that the activity cannot be profane; no pop concerts, or even classical music concerts or political meetings for example.

The rules applied to clapping are also clear. Generally clapping is not allowed, but may be allowed where appropriate such as the already mentioned examples at the end of a baptism or marriage and similar occasions. After a Mass officially ends, the congregation is dismissed and the Thanks be to God said, the priest can solicit applause for the choir.But it should be minimized.

Now talking, loud or in a normal speaking voice, is another issue altogether, and I ashamned to say that I do it myself, not loud talking but normal speech..

It is a practice that has become standard today and it is a crying shame. It is disrespectful, just as disrespectful as the general degradation in standards of dress. But that is a general sickness in society today and is not limited to Catholic Churches.

There was a day, not that long ago, that no one but kids would go downtown shopping without being dressed in their "Sunday best." No women of good character would be caught dead wearing blue jeans unless they were working in their garden of on a picnic. Now that probably was an extreme and I see nothing wrong with more casual dress for those activities. My dad always wore a suit and tie, no matter what he was doing except actually swimming. Working in the garden or anything else laborious, he would take off his jacket but the tie stayed put. I thought he was nuts. But today we go to extremes. There is no where that people will not dress in the most disgusting manner. Nothing is more stomach turning than to see an old fat guy plodding along in a tee shirt with their bellies flopping over their belt buckles, and those shorts popular today that do not even look good on the young, with their socks falling down so their bare fat varicose legs are exposed for all to see, with ratty sneakers on their feet or worse yet, flip flops. And they do this in the name of comfort. Now they may be comfortable, but they make anyone around them uncomfortable and nauseous . I won't start on the women but they are just as bad and often worse than the men.

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: (Quote) John-336509 said: I hadn't ever really thought about the possib...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

Quote:
John-336509 said:

I hadn't ever really thought about the possibility that the actions that take place in the church might be partially responsible for the decrease in the belief in the Real Presence. It doesn't seem like an unreasonable hypothesis.


I tend to think the cause and effect may be the reverse of this: that a diminished belief in the Real Presence is responsible for the less respectful behavior in church.

--hide--
I agree.

Also,people don't even wear their best casual wear to Church anymore!They really dress down.

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