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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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Jan 28th 2013 new

Do you go to your dad's house, see your family there, and say ssssshhhhh--- no talking in your father's house--it disrespects him.

On the other hand:


if a son is talking to his dad in a private conversation, it would also be polite to have other social conversations in a place that did not interrupt them

on the other hand:

Is the time to have a serious private conversation with your father at a huge family gathering? Our worship together in the community is for Sunday mass (and mass at any point). Private prayer and adoration can happen the other 23 hours of the day. There are places for that private prayer and adoration in the mass too.


Just saying there's more to it than "YOUR" definition and "THEIR" definition, and they aren't always "miles apart"

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Carrie-529869 said: Do you go to your dad's house, see your family there, and say ssssshhhhh--- no talking in your ...
(Quote) Carrie-529869 said:

Do you go to your dad's house, see your family there, and say ssssshhhhh--- no talking in your father's house--it disrespects him.

On the other hand:


if a son is talking to his dad in a private conversation, it would also be polite to have other social conversations in a place that did not interrupt them

on the other hand:

Is the time to have a serious private conversation with your father at a huge family gathering? Our worship together in the community is for Sunday mass (and mass at any point). Private prayer and adoration can happen the other 23 hours of the day. There are places for that private prayer and adoration in the mass too.


Just saying there's more to it than "YOUR" definition and "THEIR" definition, and they aren't always "miles apart"

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It's unlikely Gabor's father's house is consecrated as a sacred worship space.

 

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: It's unlikely Gabor's father's house is consecrated as a sacred worship space...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

It's unlikely Gabor's father's house is consecrated as a sacred worship space.

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Wecome to the new Catholic Church??? Make it as it goes not as it should be ???

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: It's unlikely Gabor's father's house is consecrated as a sacred worship space...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

It's unlikely Gabor's father's house is consecrated as a sacred worship space.

--hide--


Point taken...however, most catholic churches are not consecrated. Just being a liturgy nerd.

Jan 28th 2013 new

During the last couple of years I have been quite motivated to study the Faith by reading and Internet searches etc. I now choose to attend the Traditional Latin Mass which I am pleased is not "outlawed" by the Church as I would feel uncomfortable attending in other circumstances. I don't want to open a large can of worms by discussing what has occurred in the Church since the 2nd Vatican Council, however will do a "now and then" summary:


Pre V2

One Mass
One Church
One message
Church members largely accepting Church teaching
The priest performing a Sacramental role (Persona Christi)
Christ created one Holy Church


Post V2

Numerous "forms" of the Mass (which are all equal)
We all pray in a way that "suits us"
Little emphasis on teaching and accepting the Catholic Faith (select random members of CM and see how many do not accept Church teaching)
Blurring of the lines between the priesthood and the laity.
All Churches are now equal

The last 50 years have been a very interesting period. Either the Holy Spirit has been working hard to create a wonderful diversity in the Church or someone a little less friendly to Heaven has been working overtime to create division?







Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Gabor-19025 said: During the last couple of years I have been quite motivated to study the Faith by reading and Inte...
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said:

During the last couple of years I have been quite motivated to study the Faith by reading and Internet searches etc. I now choose to attend the Traditional Latin Mass which I am pleased is not "outlawed" by the Church as I would feel uncomfortable attending in other circumstances. I don't want to open a large can of worms by discussing what has occurred in the Church since the 2nd Vatican Council, however will do a "now and then" summary:


Pre V2

One Mass
One Church
One message
Church members largely accepting Church teaching
The priest performing a Sacramental role (Persona Christi)
Christ created one Holy Church


Post V2

Numerous "forms" of the Mass (which are all equal)
We all pray in a way that "suits us"
Little emphasis on teaching and accepting the Catholic Faith (select random members of CM and see how many do not accept Church teaching)
Blurring of the lines between the priesthood and the laity.
All Churches are now equal

The last 50 years have been a very interesting period. Either the Holy Spirit has been working hard to create a wonderful diversity in the Church or someone a little less friendly to Heaven has been working overtime to create division?



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this is a chicken and egg question. The difference in the liturgy, in my opnion, is NOT to blame for lack of faith. Rather, in the sexual revolution and loss in the understanding of human dignity, and acceptance of relativism.

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Carrie-529869 said: Several points: First, as I've played about 200 weddings, I am bummed over t...
(Quote) Carrie-529869 said:

Several points:

First, as I've played about 200 weddings, I am bummed over the loss of reverence. There are certain norms and etiquette that are missed.


However, I'm seeing here lots of people trying to define reverence to their own standards. Or making up rules that dont' exist. Or disparaging what the current church allows. Reverence most certainly does NOT equal quiet. It can be, depending on the circumstances and time, place, or moment in the liturgy. Not always.


Besides the altar being the cross, it is also a marriage bed and an empty tomb. Expressive joyful singing may not have happened around the cross, but I'm willing to bet it happened around the empty tomb.


There has been judgments made that someone's manifestation of charismatic gifts isn't reverent. Yikes. Who are any of us to judge someone else's prayer, or how the Holy Spirit chooses to manifest his spiritual gifts?


Women reading liturgical readings IS NOT a violation of canon law or GIRM.

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I am not claiming that women reading at Mass is a violation of Canon Law or the GIRM. I wrongly attributed my observation of where it is forbidden for a woman to be if she offers the readings to Canon Law. It is the GIRM which a woman reading in the ambo/sanctuary violates. It's not what she is doing, it is where she is doing it.

#70 from the GIRM states:

"70. Laymen, even if they have not received institution as ministers, may perform all the functions below those reserved to deacons. At the discretion of the rector of the church, women may be appointed to ministries that are performed outside the sanctuary.

"The conference of bishops may permit qualified women to proclaim the readings before the gospel and to announce the intentions of the general intercessions. The conference may also more precisely designate a suitable place for a woman to proclaim the word of God in the liturgical assembly.[55]"

This references back to Liturgicae Instaurationes, no. 7:

"

7. In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar.

According to the norms established for these matters, however, women are allowed to:

a. proclaim the readings, except the gospel. They are to make sure that, with the help of modern sound equipment, they can be comfortably heard by all. The conferences of bishops are to give specific directions on the place best suited for women to read the word of God in the liturgical assembly.

b. announce the intentions in the general intercessions;

c. lead the liturgical assembly in singing and play the organ or other instruments;

d. read the commentary assisting the people toward a better understanding of the rite;

e. attend to other functions, customarily filled by women in other settings, as a service to the congregation, for example, ushering, organizing processions, taking up the collection.[29]"

Also, I'm curious to know which gift of the Holy Spirit a person is manifesting by raucous singing and hand clapping and dancing about. Is it the wisdom, or understanding, or counsel, or fortitude, or knowledge, or godliness, or is it fear of the Lord (Isa. 11:2-3)? Or is it working of miracles, prophecy, the discerning of spirits, diverse kinds of tongues, interpretation of speeches (1 Cor. 12:10)? It is only human to look at this behaviour and judge it by the standard we are given in Scripture and tradition... Remember, we're all commanded to judge just judgment (John 7:24) and not by mere appearances, meaning getting to the substance of things underlying what we observe.

There is no such thing as the "current church" which is not the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church. That Church is universal, meaning for all men, in all times and all places; it is always the same. Merely because a specific action is currently tolerated neither makes it doctrinal nor moral. What the Church bound on us at the Council of Trent is still binding today:

"They shall also banish from churches all those kinds of music, in which, whether by the organ, or in the singing, there is mixed up anything lascivious or impure; as also all secular actions; vain and therefore profane conversations, all walking about, noise, and clamour, that so the house of God may be seen to be, and may be called, truly a house of prayer."

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Carrie-529869 said: Point taken...however, most catholic churches are not consecrated. Just being a liturgy nerd.
(Quote) Carrie-529869 said:

Point taken...however, most catholic churches are not consecrated. Just being a liturgy nerd.

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Correction: dedicated, not consecrated. [The Eastern churches use the term 'consecration' with regard to churches; in the Latin church persons and things are 'consecrated', whereas places (e.g. churches and altars) are 'dedicated']

All Catholic churches are to be dedicated or blessed as soon as possible after construction (a church would be blessed instead of dedicated if it is intended to be used as such temporarily):

Can. 1214 The term church means a sacred building intended for divine worship, to which the faithful have right of access for the exercise, especially the public exercise, of divine worship.

Can. 1217 §1 As soon as possible after completion of the building the new church is to be dedicated or at least blessed, following the laws of the sacred liturgy.

§2 Churches, especially cathedrals and parish churches, are to be dedicated by a solemn rite.

Jan 28th 2013 new

Your quote from the GIRM is incorrect. I tried pasting, but it didn't format correctly.


Here is a link: www.usccb.org

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: Correction: dedicated, not consecrated. [The Eastern churches use the term 'consecrat...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

Correction: dedicated, not consecrated. [The Eastern churches use the term 'consecration' with regard to churches; in the Latin church persons and things are 'consecrated', whereas places (e.g. churches and altars) are 'dedicated']

All Catholic churches are to be dedicated or blessed as soon as possible after construction (a church would be blessed instead of dedicated if it is intended to be used as such temporarily):

Can. 1214 The term church means a sacred building intended for divine worship, to which the faithful have right of access for the exercise, especially the public exercise, of divine worship.

Can. 1217 §1 As soon as possible after completion of the building the new church is to be dedicated or at least blessed, following the laws of the sacred liturgy.

§2 Churches, especially cathedrals and parish churches, are to be dedicated by a solemn rite.

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It's not a mere terminology difference. My understanding is that Consecration is used occasionally, but not often due to the headache of "unconsecrating" ground if it ever ceases to be a church in the future (possible parish closings, etc)

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