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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: I am not claiming that women reading at Mass is a violation of Canon Law or the GIRM. I...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



I am not claiming that women reading at Mass is a violation of Canon Law or the GIRM. I wrongly attributed my observation of where it is forbidden for a woman to be if she offers the readings to Canon Law. It is the GIRM which a woman reading in the ambo/sanctuary violates. It's not what she is doing, it is where she is doing it.

#70 from the GIRM states:

"70. Laymen, even if they have not received institution as ministers, may perform all the functions below those reserved to deacons. At the discretion of the rector of the church, women may be appointed to ministries that are performed outside the sanctuary.

"The conference of bishops may permit qualified women to proclaim the readings before the gospel and to announce the intentions of the general intercessions. The conference may also more precisely designate a suitable place for a woman to proclaim the word of God in the liturgical assembly.[55]"

This references back to Liturgicae Instaurationes, no. 7:

"

7. In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar.

According to the norms established for these matters, however, women are allowed to:

a. proclaim the readings, except the gospel. They are to make sure that, with the help of modern sound equipment, they can be comfortably heard by all. The conferences of bishops are to give specific directions on the place best suited for women to read the word of God in the liturgical assembly.

b. announce the intentions in the general intercessions;

c. lead the liturgical assembly in singing and play the organ or other instruments;

d. read the commentary assisting the people toward a better understanding of the rite;

e. attend to other functions, customarily filled by women in other settings, as a service to the congregation, for example, ushering, organizing processions, taking up the collection.[29]"

--hide--

What version of the GIRM are you referencing? In the current version on the USCCB web site and in my printed copy (2002), #70 addresses the form of the intentions in the Prayer of the Faithful.

Also note that Liturgicae instaurationes was promulgated in 1970. Canon 230 of the 1983 code supersedes the restriction against female altar servers; I don't know if the remainder of the document remains in force.

Jan 28th 2013 new
(Quote) Carrie-529869 said: Point taken...however, most catholic churches are not consecrated. Just being a liturgy ne...
(Quote) Carrie-529869 said:




Point taken...however, most catholic churches are not consecrated. Just being a liturgy nerd.

--hide--


People have no concept of how to teach their children to act in churches these days. I went to a neighboring church recently where the Eucharist was exposed for adoration and adults and children were noisy and running around in the church during the time the Priest and Deacon weren't in the building. I think it is very sad and the Priest talked about being respectful in Gods house before the exposition. Twenty years ago when I first started visiting this church it was never a problem. Also sad to say the cameras in the church are most likely very necessary ---- there are signs everywhere about the security cameras.
Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: It's unlikely Gabor's father's house is consecrated as a sacred worship space...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

It's unlikely Gabor's father's house is consecrated as a sacred worship space.

--hide--



I also pray that my father (RIP) will be accepted into God the Father's home. This is a side issue but demonstrates the evolution of modern thinking and casualness. There is a trend of making the dangerous assumption that all go straight to Heaven and you are wasting your time praying for your deceased relatives. If you go to any funeral these days the dead are talked of like they are already drinking beer in eternal bliss. That is my experience. A healthy respect and fear of God is just as important as a love of God. Do we respect God or do we treat him like one of us in a Church, in the Liturgy or in the Sacraments or even have an expectation of being automatically accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven when we leave this world?














Jan 28th 2013 new

It seems as though I am now called to defend the Catholic masses in the Charismatic style, even though, as I indicated, I would not rather attend those Masses because I am not comfortable with that style of worship. I am not sure that I am comfortable with that amount of irony.

This happens again and again in the forums where people want to make their personal preference in worship, clothing and conduct sound more holy or more reverent or more Catholic. Just because something is not your preference does not mean it is sinful, disrespectful or a violation of Church teaching.

As others have addressed some of the points I intended to, I will stick to an original comment. Your use of the word "profane" gives me pause for concern because it has degrees of meaning. I do not wish to assume, and I do not know if you are using "profane" to mean "secular" or "unholy" or "disrespectful". Is a wave in the air or clapping secular or unholy or disrespectful? How many movements happen in a Church that are not strictly reverent and take place outside a Church also - answer lots (such as removing your gloves, shaking hands for peace, reaching for a Kleenex when you sneeze, getting up to go the washroom if one really has to go, etc.)

I don't know what Masses you are attending where children treat the Sign of the Cross like another dance move, but any parish that I have attended (again, all Novus Ordo masses) the parents would smack the kids upside the head for that or drag them out (literally by sleeve, collar or ear), and risk a call from the children's aid society (or similiar such civil agency). I have never seen anyone ever treat the Sign of the Cross in a disrespectful manner in a Church. I am not sure where this is taking place, but I have never, ever witnessed it, and I attend Mass regularly. Could it be that we have another case of people in the CM forums chastising others for imaginary sins? Let's make everything and everybody else sound less holy than we are. Oh boy ... I don't have time for this one. Thanks for the intellectual exercise, but I'm moving on to other threads.


Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: (Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: I am not claiming that women reading a...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

Quote:
Chelsea-743484 said:



I am not claiming that women reading at Mass is a violation of Canon Law or the GIRM. I wrongly attributed my observation of where it is forbidden for a woman to be if she offers the readings to Canon Law. It is the GIRM which a woman reading in the ambo/sanctuary violates. It's not what she is doing, it is where she is doing it.

#70 from the GIRM states:

"70. Laymen, even if they have not received institution as ministers, may perform all the functions below those reserved to deacons. At the discretion of the rector of the church, women may be appointed to ministries that are performed outside the sanctuary.

"The conference of bishops may permit qualified women to proclaim the readings before the gospel and to announce the intentions of the general intercessions. The conference may also more precisely designate a suitable place for a woman to proclaim the word of God in the liturgical assembly.[55]"

This references back to Liturgicae Instaurationes, no. 7:

"

7. In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar.

According to the norms established for these matters, however, women are allowed to:

a. proclaim the readings, except the gospel. They are to make sure that, with the help of modern sound equipment, they can be comfortably heard by all. The conferences of bishops are to give specific directions on the place best suited for women to read the word of God in the liturgical assembly.

b. announce the intentions in the general intercessions;

c. lead the liturgical assembly in singing and play the organ or other instruments;

d. read the commentary assisting the people toward a better understanding of the rite;

e. attend to other functions, customarily filled by women in other settings, as a service to the congregation, for example, ushering, organizing processions, taking up the collection.[29]"


What version of the GIRM are you referencing? In the current version on the USCCB web site and in my printed copy (2002), #70 addresses the form of the intentions in the Prayer of the Faithful.

Also note that Liturgicae instaurationes was promulgated in 1970. Canon 230 of the 1983 code supersedes the restriction against female altar servers; I don't know if the remainder of the document remains in force.

--hide--

It appears that paragraphs 101-103 of the current GIRM correspond to paragraph 70 cited above. Note there is no mention of restricting the presence of females on the altar, and none was noted scanning the surrounding text:

100. In the absence of an instituted acolyte, there may be deputed lay ministers to serve at the altar and assist the Priest and the Deacon; these carry the cross, the candles, the thurible, the bread, the wine, and the water, or who are even deputed to distribute Holy Communion as extraordinary ministers.[84]

101. In the absence of an instituted lector, other lay people may be deputed to proclaim the readings from Sacred Scripture, people who are truly suited to carrying out this function and carefully prepared, so that by their hearing the readings from the sacred texts the faithful may conceive in their hearts a sweet and living affection for Sacred Scripture.[85]

102. It is the psalmist’s place to sing the Psalm or other biblical canticle to be found between the readings. To carry out this function correctly, it is necessary for the psalmist to be accomplished in the art of singing Psalms and have a facility in public speaking and elocution.

www.usccb.org

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Gabor-19025 said: I also pray that my father (RIP) will be accepted into God the Father's home. This is a side i...
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said:

I also pray that my father (RIP) will be accepted into God the Father's home. This is a side issue but demonstrates the evolution of modern thinking and casualness. There is a trend of making the dangerous assumption that all go straight to Heaven and you are wasting your time praying for your deceased relatives. If you go to any funeral these days the dead are talked of like they are already drinking beer in eternal bliss. That is my experience. A healthy respect and fear of God is just as important as a love of God. Do we respect God or do we treat him like one of us in a Church, in the Liturgy or in the Sacraments or even have an expectation of being automatically accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven when we leave this world?

--hide--

Well stated! This bothers me very much, as well.

All should remember that if the souls you pray for explicitly have no need of those prayers, the prayers are applied to other souls that do need them -- they are never wasted! However, when we fail to pray for souls that need the prayers, it is an opportunity lost forever.

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Gabor-19025 said: I also pray that my father (RIP) will be accepted into God the Father's home. This is a side issu...
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said:

I also pray that my father (RIP) will be accepted into God the Father's home. This is a side issue but demonstrates the evolution of modern thinking and casualness. There is a trend of making the dangerous assumption that all go straight to Heaven and you are wasting your time praying for your deceased relatives. If you go to any funeral these days the dead are talked of like they are already drinking beer in eternal bliss. That is my experience. A healthy respect and fear of God is just as important as a love of God. Do we respect God or do we treat him like one of us in a Church, in the Liturgy or in the Sacraments or even have an expectation of being automatically accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven when we leave this world?

--hide--

This has NOTHING to do with thinking all go straight to heaven. Nothing.
Man, I wish people would stick to the topic.

Jan 28th 2013 new

Around here they use the churches for concerts and it bothers me.

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Gabor-19025 said: During the last couple of years I have been quite motivated to study the Faith by reading and Inte...
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said:

During the last couple of years I have been quite motivated to study the Faith by reading and Internet searches etc. I now choose to attend the Traditional Latin Mass which I am pleased is not "outlawed" by the Church as I would feel uncomfortable attending in other circumstances. I don't want to open a large can of worms by discussing what has occurred in the Church since the 2nd Vatican Council, however will do a "now and then" summary:


Pre V2

One Mass
One Church
One message
Church members largely accepting Church teaching
The priest performing a Sacramental role (Persona Christi)
Christ created one Holy Church


Post V2

Numerous "forms" of the Mass (which are all equal)
We all pray in a way that "suits us"
Little emphasis on teaching and accepting the Catholic Faith (select random members of CM and see how many do not accept Church teaching)
Blurring of the lines between the priesthood and the laity.
All Churches are now equal

The last 50 years have been a very interesting period. Either the Holy Spirit has been working hard to create a wonderful diversity in the Church or someone a little less friendly to Heaven has been working overtime to create division?






--hide--

There may be more than one form of the Mass but there is still only one Mass. Remember that even before VII, there were a total of 23 different churches in the Catholic Church all under and loyal to the Pope. And each had their own variation of the Mass. Of those churches the Roman Church was and is the largest.

All have one message even today. All loyal and correctly educated in the faith members of the Church accept the Church's doctrines, dogmas and teachings.

But the great exodus of priests and religious who abandoned their vocations for whatever valid or invalid reason has left the education role of the Church crippled. Mix in the falling off the cliff of society in general because of the destructive nature of the 60's -70's generation, the most destructive of society generation in a millennium, and you have an insight into the Church's problems.

Never forget that although the Church is from God, it exits in the world. Its members, religious, priests and leaders are all human beings with a fallen nature. Each of us is prone to sin , each of us is prone to ignorance of one subject or the other and to a great extent the vast majority of us would qualify as being at barely above the totally ignorant level in the knowledge of God and the Church.

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: What version of the GIRM are you referencing? In the current version on the USCCB web sit...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

What version of the GIRM are you referencing? In the current version on the USCCB web site and in my printed copy (2002), #70 addresses the form of the intentions in the Prayer of the Faithful.

Also note that Liturgicae instaurationes was promulgated in 1970. Canon 230 of the 1983 code supersedes the restriction against female altar servers; I don't know if the remainder of the document remains in force.

--hide--


When the CIC 1983 came into force it only abrogated four things (Can. 6 §1):

1/ the Code of Canon Law promulgated in 1917;

2/ other universal or particular laws contrary to the prescripts of this Code unless other provision is expressly made for particular laws;

3/ any universal or particular penal laws whatsoever issued by the Apostolic See unless they are contained in this Code;

4/ other universal disciplinary laws regarding matter which this Code completely reorders.

None of this applies to what I quoted in Liturgicae instaurationes. What I quoted was not from the CIC 1917, is not contrary to prescripts of the CIC 1983 (as it is merely a specification of what Can. 230 allows), is not penal law, and is not completely reordered in the CIC 1983.

Yes, apparently I've been using the wrong GIRM all these years and that's my own fault, but the knowledge of the traditional norm that women are barred from serving the priest at the altar is still in effect (not abrogated by CIC 1983) under the authority of the Holy Father Pope Paul VI, who commanded all who are concerned with it to observe it.

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