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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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I was just on facebook and read about the story of Jennifer Moribelli, a 29 year old woman who died of complications of an abortion at 33 weeks. Predictably, all the comments focused on the evil doctor and expressed sympathy for the baby and the mother. For starters, of course any doctor performing abortions, particularly late term abortions is evil. I pray that these doctors see the errors of their ways and repent or it is going to be a painful eternity. And of course, there is sympathy for the baby - particularly a 33 week preborn who was likely completely viable. (I imagine there probably was some health problem of some sorts with the mother and/or child, but that of course, is NOT the point).


But why, in the pro-life movement, do we have so much sympathy for these mothers? I understand that for PR reasons venom towards the doctor and our culture of death may make more sense than condemning the mothers, but the mothers are ultimately the one responsible. As horrific a decison that Roe v. Wade is, abortion is completely optional in just about the entire world with the exception of China. The reality is doctors mainly go into abortion practices NOT because they are evil and love killing babies - but because of the money. Regardless of whether abortion is legal or not (and of course we should pray that it gets banned throughout the world), abortion doctors wouldn't exist without patients. And what kind of world to do we live in where there is enough business of mothers willing to have their unborn babies killed at 33 weeks gestation?


As for Ms. Moribelli, I do feel sympathy for her friends and family. Also, I don't know the extent of her physical or mental deficiencies that may have helped lead her to make such a tragic decison. Furthermore, I do wish that God have mercy on her soul.


But do I really feel that Ms. Moritbelli's death is tragedy or feel much sympathy for her? No. Will someone explain why I should and why we always give mothers who choose abortion a pass?

Feb 11th 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-341178 said: I was just on facebook and read about the story of Jennifer Moribelli, a 29 year old woman who ...
(Quote) Patrick-341178 said:

I was just on facebook and read about the story of Jennifer Moribelli, a 29 year old woman who died of complications of an abortion at 33 weeks. Predictably, all the comments focused on the evil doctor and expressed sympathy for the baby and the mother. For starters, of course any doctor performing abortions, particularly late term abortions is evil. I pray that these doctors see the errors of their ways and repent or it is going to be a painful eternity. And of course, there is sympathy for the baby - particularly a 33 week preborn who was likely completely viable. (I imagine there probably was some health problem of some sorts with the mother and/or child, but that of course, is NOT the point).


But why, in the pro-life movement, do we have so much sympathy for these mothers? I understand that for PR reasons venom towards the doctor and our culture of death may make more sense than condemning the mothers, but the mothers are ultimately the one responsible. As horrific a decison that Roe v. Wade is, abortion is completely optional in just about the entire world with the exception of China. The reality is doctors mainly go into abortion practices NOT because they are evil and love killing babies - but because of the money. Regardless of whether abortion is legal or not (and of course we should pray that it gets banned throughout the world), abortion doctors wouldn't exist without patients. And what kind of world to do we live in where there is enough business of mothers willing to have their unborn babies killed at 33 weeks gestation?


As for Ms. Moribelli, I do feel sympathy for her friends and family. Also, I don't know the extent of her physical or mental deficiencies that may have helped lead her to make such a tragic decison. Furthermore, I do wish that God have mercy on her soul.


But do I really feel that Ms. Moritbelli's death is tragedy or feel much sympathy for her? No. Will someone explain why I should and why we always give mothers who choose abortion a pass?

--hide--
Patrick -- it's quite apparent that Ms Moritbelli was NOT given a pass. If we are to be true to our pro-life commitment, we will value every human being as a child of God. That includes those who do not live up to our expectations.

We do ask for mercy for this woman's soul. If we don't, we are sitting in on her eternal judgment, which is certainly not up to us. That remains the Lord's domain, despite what we may think of her and what she set out to do.

As you mentioned, we don't know the mental state of this woman. In many cases, women seeking abortions are fed pure hogwash about what is really taking place -- that is, the taking of a human life. We've all heard some of what's "fed' to women -- it's not a human if it's not born yet; it's a blob; it's just tissue, and so on. They may be poorly educated in this area and do not fully realize what an abortion involves.

There is also pressure -- from relatives, boyfriend and whoever else might be in the picture. This creates psychological difficulties for a woman who feels the effects of strong pressure and can't cope with it. There is fear in many. Perhaps she did understand totally what she was doing but felt it wasn't wrong because she was told it is legal, and if it's legal, it's ok. There are many elements of this sad tale that we don't know -- and never will.

Another human life was lost -- certainly her friends, relatives, and neighbors will mourn her.

Why blame the doctor? Because he's supposed to know exactly what he is doing. As a physician, he is knowledgeable about enough science to realize he is taking the life of an unborn human being. He is doing this with a clear mind and intent. Typically, it's a profit motive that drives them. Easy money. Did he pass on his knowledge to his patient and emphasize what she is actually intending to have done? That is an unknown factor.

The parable of the Good Shepherd comes to mind. Leaving the 99 sheep behind to seek one that became lost became a priority. This is one of the Good Shepherd's sheep that cannot return to the flock. Because of that, we mourn.

Feb 11th 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-341178 said: I was just on facebook and read about the story of Jennifer Moribelli, a 29 year old woman who ...
(Quote) Patrick-341178 said:

I was just on facebook and read about the story of Jennifer Moribelli, a 29 year old woman who died of complications of an abortion at 33 weeks. Predictably, all the comments focused on the evil doctor and expressed sympathy for the baby and the mother. For starters, of course any doctor performing abortions, particularly late term abortions is evil. I pray that these doctors see the errors of their ways and repent or it is going to be a painful eternity. And of course, there is sympathy for the baby - particularly a 33 week preborn who was likely completely viable. (I imagine there probably was some health problem of some sorts with the mother and/or child, but that of course, is NOT the point).


But why, in the pro-life movement, do we have so much sympathy for these mothers? I understand that for PR reasons venom towards the doctor and our culture of death may make more sense than condemning the mothers, but the mothers are ultimately the one responsible. As horrific a decison that Roe v. Wade is, abortion is completely optional in just about the entire world with the exception of China. The reality is doctors mainly go into abortion practices NOT because they are evil and love killing babies - but because of the money. Regardless of whether abortion is legal or not (and of course we should pray that it gets banned throughout the world), abortion doctors wouldn't exist without patients. And what kind of world to do we live in where there is enough business of mothers willing to have their unborn babies killed at 33 weeks gestation?


As for Ms. Moribelli, I do feel sympathy for her friends and family. Also, I don't know the extent of her physical or mental deficiencies that may have helped lead her to make such a tragic decison. Furthermore, I do wish that God have mercy on her soul.


But do I really feel that Ms. Moritbelli's death is tragedy or feel much sympathy for her? No. Will someone explain why I should and why we always give mothers who choose abortion a pass?

--hide--

Doctors performing abortions may or may not be evil. That is for God to judge, not you or I or anyone else. What they are doing is evil. But don't forget the three requirements for a mortal sin to be committed. Only if we knew with an absolute certainty, something that only God can know, that the particular Doctor met all three requirements could we say that he was evil. But we cannot know that, so it is wrong to say a Doctor is evil.

We should always have sympathy and pray for anyone that dies, no matter what they have done or how they died.

Feb 11th 2013 new

I don't think we "give the mother a pass".

I think we recognize that many times the decision to abort is made under duress and in ignorance of what it entails and what its repercussions are likely to be. Oftentimes an abortion occurs because the mother is overwhelmed by the parent(s), boyfriend, girlfriends, media, and abortion practioner who effectively make the decision for her.


Parallel situation, perhaps: a gunman opens fire on a crowd. Yes, he's guilty of killing them, but so are the friends who ignored his threats, the girlfriend who jilted him, and the gun salesman who didn't think twice about selling weapons to someone who was obviously distraught.


We're all in it together, methinks.

Feb 11th 2013 new

(Quote) Marge-938695 said: I don't think we "give the mother a pass". I think we recognize that many ...
(Quote) Marge-938695 said:

I don't think we "give the mother a pass".

I think we recognize that many times the decision to abort is made under duress and in ignorance of what it entails and what its repercussions are likely to be. Oftentimes an abortion occurs because the mother is overwhelmed by the parent(s), boyfriend, girlfriends, media, and abortion practioner who effectively make the decision for her.


Parallel situation, perhaps: a gunman opens fire on a crowd. Yes, he's guilty of killing them, but so are the friends who ignored his threats, the girlfriend who jilted him, and the gun salesman who didn't think twice about selling weapons to someone who was obviously distraught.


We're all in it together, methinks.

--hide--
I agree with the duress and possible ignorance factors, as I mentioned in my previous post. A person under a lot of pressure will often act in a different way than usual. Stress affects our thinking capabilities. There is also a lot of misinformatin being passed on about what is actually about to happen. The procedure is minimized to reduce guilt a woman might feel.

If we are alert, we can look for distress signs and try to help as best we can and with the resources available to us.

Feb 11th 2013 new

Whether abortionists are evil or doing something evil, I suppose is up to God to decide. That really isn't the point of this forum so I don't want to to discuss that anymore.


Yes, when a murderer kills, we do try to look and analyze the situation. hat is society, the parents, friends or lack of friends, poverty, drugs, video games, guns, mental illness or evil? Certainly those are important things to look at and we are having that kind of discussion with the Sandy Hook tragedy.


Yet, when push comes to shove, when are murderer, murders, we blame the murderer for the most part. So in abortion, of course it makes sense to blame the doctors first and foremost. I am all for that.


Yet, many times in murder cases, there is or are accomplices. They get most, and rightfully so, of the secondary blame. Again, this all a matter of pespective, but in abortion, I feel that the women are incorrectly seen as victims and get little or virtually no blame at all. If this case, the woman is constantly been discussed as a victim. She is not a victim. The baby is a vicitim. She decided to have her baby killed and it ended up costing her life. If she had decided to try to have the child and died, then she would be a victim. Although I don't wish harm upon women who have abortions, as I hope they realize their tragic decisions and repent later in life, I don't feel sympathy for women who have abortions and have suffered any kind of physical and/ or psychological harm until they repent. It is sad in this case, that since this woman died, she had no chance to repent and thus I wish God have mercy on her soul, but I do not feel she is a vicitim or have sympathy for her. However, of course, I do have sympathy for her friends and family.


I understand that I most people don't feel the way that I do and I respect that. Regardless of what issues the woman had her in life, I just don't see why a mother who aborted her 7.7 month unborn fully viable child is a victim. I have to disagee- I feel that women do mostly get a pass. The fact that we try to blame the boyfriend or the father who has absolutely zero legal rights until the baby is born is beyond me. Of course, the dads could be more supportive and try to convince the mothers to have the kid so they have some moral responsibility - but it is the mother's choice. When they choose death simply because it is legal, they should be called out.


Feb 11th 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-341178 said: I was just on facebook and read about the story of Jennifer Moribelli, a 29 year old woman who ...
(Quote) Patrick-341178 said:

I was just on facebook and read about the story of Jennifer Moribelli, a 29 year old woman who died of complications of an abortion at 33 weeks. Predictably, all the comments focused on the evil doctor and expressed sympathy for the baby and the mother. For starters, of course any doctor performing abortions, particularly late term abortions is evil. I pray that these doctors see the errors of their ways and repent or it is going to be a painful eternity. And of course, there is sympathy for the baby - particularly a 33 week preborn who was likely completely viable. (I imagine there probably was some health problem of some sorts with the mother and/or child, but that of course, is NOT the point).


But why, in the pro-life movement, do we have so much sympathy for these mothers? I understand that for PR reasons venom towards the doctor and our culture of death may make more sense than condemning the mothers, but the mothers are ultimately the one responsible. As horrific a decison that Roe v. Wade is, abortion is completely optional in just about the entire world with the exception of China. The reality is doctors mainly go into abortion practices NOT because they are evil and love killing babies - but because of the money. Regardless of whether abortion is legal or not (and of course we should pray that it gets banned throughout the world), abortion doctors wouldn't exist without patients. And what kind of world to do we live in where there is enough business of mothers willing to have their unborn babies killed at 33 weeks gestation?


As for Ms. Moribelli, I do feel sympathy for her friends and family. Also, I don't know the extent of her physical or mental deficiencies that may have helped lead her to make such a tragic decison. Furthermore, I do wish that God have mercy on her soul.


But do I really feel that Ms. Moritbelli's death is tragedy or feel much sympathy for her? No. Will someone explain why I should and why we always give mothers who choose abortion a pass?

--hide--


I cannot speak for a lot of women who choose abortions, but the ones I know over the years have done it for extemely
greedy reasons. It was because it would interfere with their career or lifestyle. And these are women who were
married. These women were highly aggressive physicians and business women. Another one of them had a lifestyle living in
Monte Carlo and enjoyed the good life while her husband was transferred there. I guess being pregnant would interefere
with wearing her bikini on the beach in France.

Some people just don't get it, when it comes to abortion. That is a human life.

Feb 11th 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-341178 said: Although I don't wish harm upon women who have abortions, as I hope they realize their tragic deci...
(Quote) Patrick-341178 said: Although I don't wish harm upon women who have abortions, as I hope they realize their tragic decisions and repent later in life, I don't feel sympathy for women who have abortions and have suffered any kind of physical and/ or psychological harm until they repent.
--hide--

Let you without sin cast the first stone. Why do we need to judge anyone for wrong decisions they have made in their life?

As a woman who works with those suffering the aftermath of abortion, I can tell you there are many reasons women feel that abortion is their only choice and there is much blame to go around. There is much misinformation given from the pro-death progressive movement that has been bought into by our society. From what I've experienced, women and men involved in abortion has not be given a "pass" and they are called out often (mostly to themselves) for the wrong decision they have made. In most cases they have PTSD which causes even more issues in their lives. Believe me, they blame themselves enough. If you wish to pile on, it seems you should worry about your own repentence.

www.silentnomoreawareness.org

www.rachelsvineyard.org

Feb 11th 2013 new

There are over 1 million abortions a year in America. I dont know how many there are worldwide but I imagine it is in the tens of millions. All the efforts of the pro-life movement in the 40 years of Roe v. Wade tragically has only produced minimal results. A recent poll was released that showed support for abortion rights was at record highs.

Now, certainly I applaud everyone on the pro-life front line. I have tended to focus my efforts on helping elect pro-life politicians but certainly I could do more and don't claim to be without sin.

I said that I do have sympathy for women who have had abortions and repent. Simply feeling guilt or bad about their decisions I feel is insufficient. You have to ask for God's forgiveness and complete a penance, which involves trying to prevent others from making the same mistakes. Those women that have done that I applaud them.


Now, in this particular case, it involved a woman getting a late term abortion. Women who get early term abortions, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, that they felt that at that stage of pregnancy a baby is simply a "potential life" and not a "life." Obviously, this a flawed way of thinking but I can understand it. Also, early term abortions, they have yet to feel the baby kicking and truly growing inside them so I can see as a way of just trying to be done with it, how women can come to such a tragic decision.


But at 7.7 months???? Come on!!! Why is this woman innocent and the doctor is solely responsible? If we keep giving women a pass in abortion, the numbers are going to remain tragically high.



quote]Stephanie-450440 said:

Let you without sin cast the first stone. Why do we need to judge anyone for wrong decisions they have made in their life?

As a woman who works with those suffering the aftermath of abortion, I can tell you there are many reasons women feel that abortion is their only choice and there is much blame to go around. There is much misinformation given from the pro-death progressive movement that has been bought into by our society. From what I've experienced, women and men involved in abortion has not be given a "pass" and they are called out often (mostly to themselves) for the wrong decision they have made. In most cases they have PTSD which causes even more issues in their lives. Believe me, they blame themselves enough. If you wish to pile on, it seems you should worry about your own repentence.

www.silentnomoreawareness.org

www.rachelsvineyard.org

[/quote]

Feb 11th 2013 new

(Quote) Stephanie-450440 said:Let you without sin cast the first stone. Why do we need to judge anyone for wrong decisions they hav...
(Quote) Stephanie-450440 said:Let you without sin cast the first stone. Why do we need to judge anyone for wrong decisions they have made in their life?
--hide--

I wanted to say howmuch I disagreed withtha above statement,

but the rest of your post was right on... I think we must judge the

actions of others to set our personal standard for behavior- the actual people-

well the way is to forgive, not to blame

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