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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Feb 13th 2013 new

I try to stay out of these highly emotional debates but I have to speak up because something is being overlooked, especially in the last comment. There are women whose husbands bypass doctors to end pregnancies, often hurting the women in the process. A well-placed beating can take care of things. Wouldn't it be easier after one or two of those to go ahead and go to a "clinic" first? It doesn't justify aborting, but that is the mindset some women are coming from. They may want the child but feel extreme pressure or even in danger for their lives. This is why crisis pregnancy centers need to be paired with abuse services; if we as the church can help both situations, that would be best. Some people stay in abusive relationships because they don't know any way out, misunderstand the church's stance and think they have to stay no matter what, or whatever.

That said, I pray for someone I know who told me she had multiple abortions because "it just wasn't the right time" in her career. My mother has a career; she had trouble conceiving but wouldn't do anything unethical, had three of us and said she was always sad she didn't get six like she wanted. Careers are not reasons to kill children. That said, it's really difficult to have a successful career even as a student and feel like a successful mother. Maybe devaluing the mother's place in a home is one of the underlying problems we have in our current society.

Individual circumstances make such a difference, the best I know to do is tell women at risk what Mother Teresa said - if you don't want your child, please don't kill it, let me have it. There is a home where this child will be loved. Action is taking some of your time to go calmly, lovingly educate people about what is right; some women are to blame, some are not. To pull an example from history, did all white people in the United States own slaves? Generalizations often hurt the discussion and create blocks to finding solutions.

Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-341178 said: I am confused to how you can say that the husband chooses the abortion when he has no legal rig...
(Quote) Patrick-341178 said:

I am confused to how you can say that the husband chooses the abortion when he has no legal rights. I suppose if there were a case where the mother was total against the abortion and the husband/ boyfriend convinced her to change her mind; that might be the case. However, the decision is ultimately that of the mother. I have no idea if the decision were the fathers if there were be more or less abortions. But, that isn't the case, so ulitimately the responsibility falls on the mother.

--hide--


If you don't think a husband or boyfriend or a close relative can coerce a woman into having an abortion then I think you are being naive...remember that many women who have abortions are very young, often still teenagers. Go stand outside an abortion clinic sometime and you will likely see what I am talking about...very young women escorted by their elders, often male. While many of these women choose to have abortions on their own, many of them are also forced. But then again, that is not the point I am trying to make.

The real point is that since abortion is the taking of an innocent life, it is always a serious sin. And the focus should be to eliminate this sin. How best do we eliminate this sin? Probably not by assigning blame, but rather through confession and conversion of those who have chosen abortion or are considering choosing abortion. Yes, we want to stop the killing of the innocent, but even more so we must work for the conversion of those who have committed the sin of abortion, for they have the most to lose...eternal life.

Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Cheryl-409772 said: Are you talking about the correlation of birth control CAUSING abortion because then you would b...
(Quote) Cheryl-409772 said:

Are you talking about the correlation of birth control CAUSING abortion because then you would be right. However, otherwise I'd disagree because the birth control is readily available and the people CHOOSE Not to use it. Thus, whether it is there or not....a mute point. Abortions are usually done because babies are inconvenient and abortions are then used as a means of birth control. I also disagree with your statement about not being able to determine if a doctor who kills bazillions of babies and permanently damages women is evil or not....pretty sure we can judge evil when it is clearer than day. Hitler was evil for instance. No we are not God, but obvious is obvious.

--hide--

You can and should judge the action. You cannot and should not judge the state of the person's soul. That job belongs solely to God.

Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Dan-28682 said: If you don't think a husband or boyfriend or a close relative can coerce a woman into ha...
(Quote) Dan-28682 said:



If you don't think a husband or boyfriend or a close relative can coerce a woman into having an abortion then I think you are being naive...remember that many women who have abortions are very young, often still teenagers. Go stand outside an abortion clinic sometime and you will likely see what I am talking about...very young women escorted by their elders, often male. While many of these women choose to have abortions on their own, many of them are also forced. But then again, that is not the point I am trying to make.

The real point is that since abortion is the taking of an innocent life, it is always a serious sin. And the focus should be to eliminate this sin. How best do we eliminate this sin? Probably not by assigning blame, but rather through confession and conversion of those who have chosen abortion or are considering choosing abortion. Yes, we want to stop the killing of the innocent, but even more so we must work for the conversion of those who have committed the sin of abortion, for they have the most to lose...eternal life.

--hide--



Forced seems like a very strong word - this isn't China. Strongly pressured - ok. I never said the women were only responsible but it is their choice when push comes to shove. Although I certainly have more sympathy for minors who are never were mentally or physically ready to get pregnant in the first place - they are still responsible for their own actions. We should stop making excuses for women who choose abortion. I agree that maligning them and calling them murderers is probably counter productive. Therfore, I call on post-abortive women to lead the pro-life movement.

Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Michelle-50109 said: I have not read all of the responses in this thread, so please forgive me if I repeat what'...
(Quote) Michelle-50109 said:

I have not read all of the responses in this thread, so please forgive me if I repeat what's already been said.

I agree that no woman should be given a pass for having committed the sin of abortion, however, I also feel it is not our place to judge her. The tragedy here is the loss of a life of a young woman, and it is, indeed, a tragedy. Any loss of life is a tragedy. Suicide is a tragedy, and that, too, is a choice that many people make for themselves. It truly is sad that so many people are so despaired as to do such a thing.

That said, I do agree with you, Patrick, that the woman herself is just as responsible for what happened to her and I believe it was a risk she chose, so, no, I don't feel much sympathy for her either. I am a strong believer that, if you don't want children, DON'T HAVE SEX!!! I truly tire of those who use abortion as birth control. Why not use SELF control rather than birth control???

I think the pro-life movement targets the doctors so much more than the mothers because they do this baby murder every day and for their paycheck. In addition, many of these abortion clinics persuade women to have the abortion, when they might not have otherwise. They are spreading their infection of evil to every woman that walks through their door.

As a woman who chose to have an unplanned child, I can say that there is no proper excuse under heaven to undergo an abortion. I was young and unwed and scared to death, too. I even considered putting him up for adoption so that he would have a good life. Abortion never crossed my mind as an option and I was a lot less Catholic then than I am now. Abortion is stupid, risky and cruel. Anyone who goes into it knowing that (and they all do), is accepting the risk and all the ugliness that goes with it. It seems to me that many of them think they can sweep what they've done under the carpet and that's the end of it. Unfortunately, some DO have further consequences, such as the case with Jennifer Moribelli.

For the record, I have known many women who have had abortions, and each and every one of them did it for selfish purposes and knew full well what they were doing. People who try to say they don't are just people who aren't accepting responsibility for their ugly decisions.

--hide--



nicely stated. Even though I believe that chlidren are best raised in a home of a mom and dad, it is important that we don't malign single moms. They, like you, do the best they can in difficult circumstances. You should be applauded for choosing life.


I agree that most women who have abortions do it for selfish reasons. It is odd to me in the pro-life movement make so many excuses for women who choose abortion. Of course, there are always mitgating factors starting with a non supportive father or family, but ulitimately it is the woman's decision. The doctors are cetainly most at blame, but as I said in a previous post, they wouldn't have any business without customers.

Feb 14th 2013 new
This topic is painful to me because the medical term for any loss of pregnancy is abortion. Women who have miscarriages end up with "spontaneous abortion" written on their medical record. Imagine how that hurts a mother who didn't choose her baby's death. Termination is the medical term for what laypeople call abortion. That says enough - if the name was changed to termination for all, I'll wager the rates would drop just from that. I'm studying the Civil War right now, and from a historian's perspective, blaming women who have chosen abortion may only create more steadfast murder advocates. Don't have sex, great, 100 percent effective. Not always an option. Rape exists in many forms and no, women's bodies don't always stop conception like that senator said. NFP only works if both people commit. Marital rape happens, there are also abusive men or women who use pregnancies as a tool to get what they want without considering that this is a child. The "trap a man" pregnancies or "stay barefoot and pregnant" situations do still occur. There are so many circumstances in each case that generalizing blame just makes a mess of emotions well up, and not even necessarily in your intended audience. The doctors who perform voluntary terminations violate the Hippocratic oath, in my opinion, and that is a major issue. Support your local Catholic hospitals, be vocal about other options for unwed mothers, and be proactive in positive ways. I want to say another ugly side consequence of the throwaway fetus culture is that mothers who miscarry are ignored; very little support is offered because "it wasn't a baby yet anyway" or "you can always have another one."
Feb 14th 2013 new

Chelsea,

The reiteration not to judge is because we are not God, and we haven't the right to decide how bad a person she is based on one terrible act. Besides, we don't have nearly all the facts, nor do we know this woman from Adam - how can we possibly know for sure what really happened here? Only God Himself knows everything and what was in her heart at the time. Let He who is all-knowing and all-deserving make the final call.

I take this along the same lines as I do when I hear someone talking about how fat someone else is. People ask how he/she could "let" themselves get that way. I don' t know that anyone "lets" themselves get that way, but, people put their assumptions and judgments on someone else without having walked in their shoes. I refuse to do that, and instead choose to care for them as they are without knowing how they became that person. Counsel them on God's Laws when I can, but, not impose my judgments or feelings on them. Why do you want to impose judgment on these mothers? Would you want to be publically judged for those sins that you've got hidden in your closet? scratchchin

Please allow me to give another example. I had a friend in college who was rather promiscuous, and everyone judged her harshly for that. As someone in whom she confided, I found out she had been sexually molested her whole life by her father and another relative. Her screwed up sense of self and sexuality was due to something no one else could have known, but, to many she was a piece of garbage. Rather than judge, don't you think it's better to consider why a person is so self-destructive rather than just judging them for poor behavior?

While I do place the responsibility of these crimes against the unborn on the mothers who carry them, I still don't think it is appropriate to judge these women - I don't know the state of their hearts when they do this, and hating and judging doesn't change what happened. Prayer and consolation help with the aftermath of destructive decisions.

Judge not lest ye be judged!!!

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Two things are very interesting in this thread:1) The reiteration that we must not &quo...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:

Two things are very interesting in this thread:

1) The reiteration that we must not "judge" the woman who procured a completed abortion, or any such other woman. This is a plain absurdity, however, since we're enjoined by Our Lord to judge not by appearances, but judge just judgment (John 7:24). So, it is obviously MOST reasonable and in line with the Gospels to judge such a woman. Saying NOT to judge these women to be murderesses is like saying not to judge a man who is forcing a girl or woman to whom he is not married to give him the sexual act that is only proper to marriage to be a rapist.

2) The lack of any mention of excommunication (can. 1398, 1321-1325) of those who profess to be Catholic which is incurred ipso facto by the procurement of a completed abortion since the 1983 Code of Canon Law came into binding force. It seems to me that those who work in the support network for post-abortive women would be warning of this very grave censure which not only barrs one from the sacraments, but also from the spiritual treasury of the Church.

--hide--

Feb 14th 2013 new
(Quote) Patrick-341178 said: Nice post. My goal of this forum isn't simply to condemn women who have abortions. It is leg...
(Quote) Patrick-341178 said:




Nice post. My goal of this forum isn't simply to condemn women who have abortions. It is legal and it is true that are a number of reasons that may drive a woman to have an abortion. Yet, ultimately women need to be responsible for their actions. We should stop making excuses for them and encourage any post-abortive woman to make it her life goal to prevent other women from making the same mistake. I think if more post-abortive women did that, the numbers would drop. Despite numerous advancements in technology that show how an unborn child is very much a living being even early in pregnancy, that appears to only have had a modest effect at best on reducing the abortion rate.


I certainly don't have all the answers but it just seems odd to be that someone like Casey Anthony was condemned to nth degree for allegedly killing her 2 year old, but we seem to make some many excuses for women getting abortions and put the blame on everyone and everything else except the women.


--hide--


I don't think they are given a pass. However, let me put this into a different perspective (taking into consideration all the other considerations mentioned; ignorance, fear, coercion, etc).

We call sin "sin," as we should, but if it is done with a hammer instead of "love" then the person who is in the thick of it will react with defensiveness. No one likes to be told what to do, especially adults who believe that they have it figured out. So when Holy Mother Church looks at these women, She knows that accusing will only result in them withdrawing further into the secular world with the belief that "those people (insert Christians, Catholics, etc here) don't know me, they are judgmental and superior." Christ did not give the woman at the well a pass, but he saw into the situation and the hearts of those who accused her, he showed her love and mercy and that is what caused her to respond to Christ. Yes, she heard the Truth, but she also heard if from the author of Love itself. We are called to be Christlike in our love and that is hard to do when we see the innocent suffer. If the pre or post abortive women feel love from us, then they will respond to that love before they will respond to accusations.

We MUST speak the truth about abortion, but we MUST do it in love. Not the "oh it's okay God understands" B.S that some other Christian faiths espouse, but the "it's wrong because 'God knew you before He formed you in the womb' and wants to show you His love and mercy" truth.

When these women are faced with love, they are also more receptive to the truth about their act and its eternal consequences. Ultimately, the purpose of religion is what we are now walking in Lent; repentance, penance and a return to God so we can be with Him forever in heaven.

Stand your ground, but do it in love.
Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Michelle-50109 said: Chelsea,The reiteration not to judge is because we are not God, and we haven't the ...
(Quote) Michelle-50109 said:

Chelsea,

The reiteration not to judge is because we are not God, and we haven't the right to decide how bad a person she is based on one terrible act. Besides, we don't have nearly all the facts, nor do we know this woman from Adam - how can we possibly know for sure what really happened here? Only God Himself knows everything and what was in her heart at the time. Let He who is all-knowing and all-deserving make the final call.

I take this along the same lines as I do when I hear someone talking about how fat someone else is. People ask how he/she could "let" themselves get that way. I don' t know that anyone "lets" themselves get that way, but, people put their assumptions and judgments on someone else without having walked in their shoes. I refuse to do that, and instead choose to care for them as they are without knowing how they became that person. Counsel them on God's Laws when I can, but, not impose my judgments or feelings on them. Why do you want to impose judgment on these mothers? Would you want to be publically judged for those sins that you've got hidden in your closet?

Please allow me to give another example. I had a friend in college who was rather promiscuous, and everyone judged her harshly for that. As someone in whom she confided, I found out she had been sexually molested her whole life by her father and another relative. Her screwed up sense of self and sexuality was due to something no one else could have known, but, to many she was a piece of garbage. Rather than judge, don't you think it's better to consider why a person is so self-destructive rather than just judging them for poor behavior?

While I do place the responsibility of these crimes against the unborn on the mothers who carry them, I still don't think it is appropriate to judge these women - I don't know the state of their hearts when they do this, and hating and judging doesn't change what happened. Prayer and consolation help with the aftermath of destructive decisions.

Judge not lest ye be judged!!!

--hide--


(Sarcasm alert) So...we can't call those who murder, murderers...we can't call those who contract murders, conspirators to murder...and we can't call those who rape, rapists, because we don't know their history. Ok. Got it. Though, I never knew that was a Catholic means of rendering judgment... (now that that's done:)

Being fat is hardly a moral fault in and of itself. Allowing one's self by neglect or choosing directly to become so fleshy as to impede or end the ability to fulfill one's daily duties would be a moral fault, but not everyone who is fat is in that situation.

On the note of my sins: I don't hide them beyond modesty. It's better that people know the truth, than accept a facade as real when it's not. That only leads to future heartache on all sides...and is quite vapid and shallow. I've discovered that if you really love people, you actually want to know them, which includes personal loss and sin, and have no interest in any pretential shell they may wear.

Those who arrogate to themselves the right of life and death over their unborn children, ultimately choosing death, are manifesting a huge moral fault. Murder is an intrinsic evil no matter what way you cut it. Those who choose to commit it should be called with the name which tradition and convention has determined: murderer. To judge that is being human.

It's scriptural that we will be judged by the measure with which we mete judgment and that we must judge just judgment, but obviously you and I have no authority to condemn anyone. In order to help anyone, even your poor college mate, you first have to judge her and the situation...so it's silly to say not to judge.

I think that your line of thinking seems very destructive of communion as it appears you are saying that there could be some excuse for a woman murdering her own child, or contracting another person to do it. If a woman CHOOSES the death of her child, should we not then believe that she intended to choose the death of her child? Should we not believe that she did so with full knowledge and consent of the will if it is by her own choice that the act is done? It is so much more creative toward communion to give someone the knowledge of the consequence of their sins so that he or she can repent, confess and do satisfaction, rather than to pretend that we can't determine whether sin was committed at all.

I'm not saying that sympathy can't or shouldn't be shown to wretched sinners (which we all are). All I'm saying is that it's a huge cop-out (and undignified) not to judge (meaning to make a mental conclusion as to the trueness or falsity (and thereby the goodness or evil) of anything presented to one's intellect). It is also a bit amusing to me that you judged me. You judged that I am judging and then you judged it wise to take me to task for judging. Well, let's see you do ANY act without judging first.

Feb 14th 2013 new

Chelsea,

It is one thing to call a murderer a murderer - that is stating a fact, it is a whole other ball of wax to say that a person should be condemned for their actions. Again, only God alone has the right to determine the state of their soul, NOT YOU. Wanting to do so makes a person hateful (by the way, that is an OPINION, not a "judgment").

You are taking the term judgment way out of context of this conversation. My point is that we needn't spend our time seeing a small picture of something and determining that person is a piece of garbage because of something they've done. Some people clearly love to make that judgment because it fluffs their own feathers to put someone else in a place below themselves. I, personally, feel no satisfaction in reading about someone like Jennifer Morbelli and talking about how evil she is and taking pride in acting like I am a better person because I've never aborted a child. I'm guilty of my own sins, and who is to say that hers are better or worse than mine, and who is to say hers are better or worse than yours? GOD can say, but, not a person like you or me.

To say Jennifer Morbelli is evil is stupid. She may have gotten struck with the stupid stick, but, that doesn't make her inherently evil or even stupid. She just made a horrible decision. A mistake. She is allowed to make mistakes that are evil and dumb and cruel, and that doesn't mean she is overall an evil person. There are many people out there who will enjoy saying she is, so that they may feel superior to her. I don't.

For the record, I didn't "judge" you by saying you were judging - you made it clear you were judging, so, once again, I stated a fact, and didn't make a judgment on anyone. I don't care to judge you, or why you are the way you are.

As far as doing "any" act without judging, again, you are taking it out of context. We are talking about judging other people, not weighing facts and making decisions about what we want to do about our own personal situations. I simply do not believe in judging people for anything beyond the actual facts. I can call Jennifer Morbelli a murderer, because she murdered her child, but, I can't, in good conscience, call her evil when I don't know her OR where her heart was when she made the horrible decision that she did. I CAN call the ACT evil, because that is a fact!


(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: (Quote) Michelle-50109 said: Chelsea,The reiteration not to judg...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:

Quote:
Michelle-50109 said:

Chelsea,

The reiteration not to judge is because we are not God, and we haven't the right to decide how bad a person she is based on one terrible act. Besides, we don't have nearly all the facts, nor do we know this woman from Adam - how can we possibly know for sure what really happened here? Only God Himself knows everything and what was in her heart at the time. Let He who is all-knowing and all-deserving make the final call.

I take this along the same lines as I do when I hear someone talking about how fat someone else is. People ask how he/she could "let" themselves get that way. I don' t know that anyone "lets" themselves get that way, but, people put their assumptions and judgments on someone else without having walked in their shoes. I refuse to do that, and instead choose to care for them as they are without knowing how they became that person. Counsel them on God's Laws when I can, but, not impose my judgments or feelings on them. Why do you want to impose judgment on these mothers? Would you want to be publically judged for those sins that you've got hidden in your closet?

Please allow me to give another example. I had a friend in college who was rather promiscuous, and everyone judged her harshly for that. As someone in whom she confided, I found out she had been sexually molested her whole life by her father and another relative. Her screwed up sense of self and sexuality was due to something no one else could have known, but, to many she was a piece of garbage. Rather than judge, don't you think it's better to consider why a person is so self-destructive rather than just judging them for poor behavior?

While I do place the responsibility of these crimes against the unborn on the mothers who carry them, I still don't think it is appropriate to judge these women - I don't know the state of their hearts when they do this, and hating and judging doesn't change what happened. Prayer and consolation help with the aftermath of destructive decisions.

Judge not lest ye be judged!!!




(Sarcasm alert) So...we can't call those who murder, murderers...we can't call those who contract murders, conspirators to murder...and we can't call those who rape, rapists, because we don't know their history. Ok. Got it. Though, I never knew that was a Catholic means of rendering judgment... (now that that's done:)

Being fat is hardly a moral fault in and of itself. Allowing one's self by neglect or choosing directly to become so fleshy as to impede or end the ability to fulfill one's daily duties would be a moral fault, but not everyone who is fat is in that situation.

On the note of my sins: I don't hide them beyond modesty. It's better that people know the truth, than accept a facade as real when it's not. That only leads to future heartache on all sides...and is quite vapid and shallow. I've discovered that if you really love people, you actually want to know them, which includes personal loss and sin, and have no interest in any pretential shell they may wear.

Those who arrogate to themselves the right of life and death over their unborn children, ultimately choosing death, are manifesting a huge moral fault. Murder is an intrinsic evil no matter what way you cut it. Those who choose to commit it should be called with the name which tradition and convention has determined: murderer. To judge that is being human.

It's scriptural that we will be judged by the measure with which we mete judgment and that we must judge just judgment, but obviously you and I have no authority to condemn anyone. In order to help anyone, even your poor college mate, you first have to judge her and the situation...so it's silly to say not to judge.

I think that your line of thinking seems very destructive of communion as it appears you are saying that there could be some excuse for a woman murdering her own child, or contracting another person to do it. If a woman CHOOSES the death of her child, should we not then believe that she intended to choose the death of her child? Should we not believe that she did so with full knowledge and consent of the will if it is by her own choice that the act is done? It is so much more creative toward communion to give someone the knowledge of the consequence of their sins so that he or she can repent, confess and do satisfaction, rather than to pretend that we can't determine whether sin was committed at all.

I'm not saying that sympathy can't or shouldn't be shown to wretched sinners (which we all are). All I'm saying is that it's a huge cop-out (and undignified) not to judge (meaning to make a mental conclusion as to the trueness or falsity (and thereby the goodness or evil) of anything presented to one's intellect). It is also a bit amusing to me that you judged me. You judged that I am judging and then you judged it wise to take me to task for judging. Well, let's see you do ANY act without judging first.

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