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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-341178 said: But why, in the pro-life movement, do we have so much sympathy for these mothers?
(Quote) Patrick-341178 said:

But why, in the pro-life movement, do we have so much sympathy for these mothers?

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"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." (Luke23:34)

"But if you will not forgive, neither will your Father that is in heaven, forgive you your sins." (Mark 11:26)

Legal or illegal, there will always be abortions as long as there is demand for them. The abortion problem is not going to be solved until we solve the sexual morality problem. We're not going to solve the sexual morality problem until we reject it ourselves. Not only with words, but in action. We must begin to live chaste lives. Reject the entertainment that promotes and glamorizes sexual immorality. Until then... rotsa ruck.

Contempt toward the mothers does neither them nor you any good. There are presently over 250 responses to the blog entry where Jill Staek identified the mother in this case, many of which are critical of her as a person (not just critical of the act). If the authors of each of those responses used the time they spent writing the post to pray with sincere charity for the mother and for the end to abortion, it would have far more effect that the blog posts slamming the mother. Not only is she not around to "learn her lesson", but such attitudes aren't going to win over anyone who is pro-abortion -- and they may well cause some who are on the fence to jump off on the other side. Very productive...

Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Elizabeth-626798 said: I've read through some of the comments, and I wanted to offer my two cents because I work...
(Quote) Elizabeth-626798 said:

I've read through some of the comments, and I wanted to offer my two cents because I work at a crisis pregnancy center, trying to lead women into making the right decision to not have an abortion. I know these women. I know why they get abortions. I know what they will and will not listen to.

When abortion is on the table, there are two lives at risk: the physical life of the baby, and the eternal life of the mother. The mother thinks an abortion will solve her problems, even though she's not aware of her true problems. The woman considering an abortion is arguably the most spiritually poor person on earth. Her reasons for getting an abortion are not only not irrelevant, but the key to helping her make the right decision. We must listen to her concerns, fears, and distorted perceptions. We must not judge her emotions or thoughts, but understand them and offer empathy (not sympathy) for the difficulties she's facing, because she will not respond to judgment or condemnation. Then, we must show her the way away from sin. We must offer love, support, education, an after plan, and long-term solutions. This is the work of the Church and the commandment of Christ: to love. And if she chooses abortion, we are still commanded to love her. We do not need to tell her what a horrible thing she's done, because she already knows. Most women fall more deeply into their states of spiritual poverty after abortion, and many of them hate themselves.

We tend to blame others for abortion because abortion is a symptom of a society with a highly distorted view of sexuality. The truth is that sex = unitive/procreative, but society thinks sex = pleasure. To fix this, we must first live the truth, which produces a joy-filled life, which is very attractive. People want true joy. The most effective solution to the abortion problem for the average person is to live the gospel joyfully. The rest will follow.

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BEAUTIFULLY SAID!!!

Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Michelle-50109 said: Katherine, Wonderful post - this is why I do not feel there is any excuse to choose abo...
(Quote) Michelle-50109 said:

Katherine,

Wonderful post - this is why I do not feel there is any excuse to choose abortion - there are places for women to birth unwanted children, and there are people and places for these children to live, grow up and thrive.

There was a post somewhere in this thread demanding how anyone could expect a woman to carry an unwanted child for the remainder of the pregnancy term when she doesn't want the child. To that, I say that if she didn't want the child, she shouldn't have conceived him/her. There are no guarantees in life that say all children conceived will be perfect and healthy. By having sex and allowing conception to happen, you are taking on the risk of not only a child, but, a child that could have any number of health problems or defects. Those defects do not make that child less worthy of life.

I agree that crisis pregnancy centers need more support for abused women. I hate the fact that many "pregnancy centers" will even let a woman feel that abortion is a good option.

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Michelle I realized at a point that there is really no such thing as an unwanted child. While I realize you may be referring specifically to the parent(s) of the child, the truth is that God wants each one of us!

Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." (Luke23:34)...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." (Luke23:34)

"But if you will not forgive, neither will your Father that is in heaven, forgive you your sins." (Mark 11:26)

Legal or illegal, there will always be abortions as long as there is demand for them. The abortion problem is not going to be solved until we solve the sexual morality problem. We're not going to solve the sexual morality problem until we reject it ourselves. Not only with words, but in action. We must begin to live chaste lives. Reject the entertainment that promotes and glamorizes sexual immorality. Until then... rotsa ruck

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Monsignor Philip Reilly, founder of the now International Ministry "Helpers of God's Precious Infants" helpersbrooklynny.org and library (worth checking out!) helperslibrary.info teaches the most important aspect of sidewalk counseling ministry is leading people to a conversion of heart to Jesus, preferably before the abortion is committed, but even afterwards we must continue to reach out. Without a conversion of heart, of the parents, of the abortion workers, of the abortionists, of the "friend" taking the mother to the abortion facility, of the person who thinks they'd never have an abortion but its not their right to tell someone not to, of the UPS delivery driver who takes the instruments of killing to the abortion facility, of the linen delivery driver, in other words, a conversion of heart for all of us who play a part in this scourge in any way, whether it be through acts of omission (not going to abortion centers to pray, not helping women in difficult situations, etc.) of acts of commission, abortion will continue. Abortion is a sin, always and everywhere a grave evil. The remedy for every grave evil is conversion to Jesus Christ and following Him.

Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Jan-672216 said: (Quote) Jerry-74383 said: "Father, forgive them for they k...
(Quote) Jan-672216 said:

Quote:
Jerry-74383 said:

"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." (Luke23:34)

"But if you will not forgive, neither will your Father that is in heaven, forgive you your sins." (Mark 11:26)

Legal or illegal, there will always be abortions as long as there is demand for them. The abortion problem is not going to be solved until we solve the sexual morality problem. We're not going to solve the sexual morality problem until we reject it ourselves. Not only with words, but in action. We must begin to live chaste lives. Reject the entertainment that promotes and glamorizes sexual immorality. Until then... rotsa ruck


Monsignor Philip Reilly, founder of the now International Ministry "Helpers of God's Precious Infants" helpersbrooklynny.org and library (worth checking out!) helperslibrary.info teaches the most important aspect of sidewalk counseling ministry is leading people to a conversion of heart to Jesus, preferably before the abortion is committed, but even afterwards we must continue to reach out. Without a conversion of heart, of the parents, of the abortion workers, of the abortionists, of the "friend" taking the mother to the abortion facility, of the person who thinks they'd never have an abortion but its not their right to tell someone not to, of the UPS delivery driver who takes the instruments of killing to the abortion facility, of the linen delivery driver, in other words, a conversion of heart for all of us who play a part in this scourge in any way, whether it be through acts of omission (not going to abortion centers to pray, not helping women in difficult situations, etc.) of acts of commission, abortion will continue. Abortion is a sin, always and everywhere a grave evil. The remedy for every grave evil is conversion to Jesus Christ and following Him.

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Absolutely! On an individual basis we have to strive for a conversion of heart, preferably before the abortion. The point I was trying to get across in the last paragraph of my previous response (not included in the quote above) is that the condemnations are more likely to harden hearts than convert them.

The portion of my response quoted above wasn't intended to suggest that we not continue to convert individuals either before or after an abortion; I apologize if that wasn't clear. However, the perceived "right" to an abortion is so ingrained in modern society in much of the world that we need to look at a much broader approach to the problem as well. First and foremost is prayer. After that we have to attack the notion that sex is a commodity to be used at will for our pleasure and that unintended pregnancies are collateral damage.

Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Elizabeth-626798 said: Patrick, our main service is free pregnancy testing, and many of our women think we ...
(Quote) Elizabeth-626798 said:

Patrick, our main service is free pregnancy testing, and many of our women think we do abortions as well, so we do deal with the type of woman you're describing. I've encountered women who've had multiple abortions, as if it were birth control. It's very sad. Now, because our pregnancy tests are free, we are serving a low-income demographic, so that could be a valid difference between your experiences and mine. Also, I realize that I deal with many more pre-abortion women than post-abortion women. I don't know of any hard numbers describing how many women are aware that they are aborting a baby. Certainly, if a woman is completely ignorant that she has participated in killing her baby, then it would be good for her to receive information so she can then face her sin. Yet, when dealing with this population, it's necessary to have a merciful perspective. A woman who knows she is aborting a baby does so because, and I quote, "I have no choice." Such a woman questionably commits mortal sin because the degree of her "full consent" is in question. This is not unlike the compulsiveness of people who "cannot not masturbate" or "cannot not watch porn" or "cannot stop eating." They act out of a distorted compulsion and deficiency in understanding and in self-control. Many women who abort do so out of fear. There is psychological imbalance going on here, and an improperly formed conscience. In the case of the woman who doesn't have "full knowledge," it's not mortal sin. Regardless, both women need healing, love, forgiveness, and a practical way to deal with their sin.

I'm not sure why the issue of blame is important unless the goal is to try and pin-point how to better prevent abortions in general. You asked why we have over one million abortions in America. When a woman accepts the reality that she is carrying a baby, it doesn't necessarily change her mind. The deciding factor in whether a woman aborts is the degree to which she believes that her unborn baby has a right to live at her inconvenience. These are some common reasons that women give when they state they are going to abort: I already have too many children; the father of the baby is not supportive or is abusive; I'm too young; I'm too poor; I'm completely overwhelmed with life; I'm very sick and have really hard pregnancies; it's not a good time for me to have a baby. So, it seems that women either have a practical problem, or they are not using sex the right way. The former can be fixed with Church community support and resources, and the latter can be addressed with correct Catholic teaching on sexuality. But those things do not guarantee an abortion-free world, regardless of whether abortion is legal or not. The real key is do these things with love, because that is what people respond to. Our attitude has to be, "How can I love this woman who has committed this sin?" Is it loving to focus on blaming her? Does that give effective help?

This article from the National Catholic Register is interesting because it puts the issue in perspective: www.ncregister.com

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There is never going to be an abortion free world. I have heard that in Latin America, where abortion is strictly regulated, there are quite a few illegal abortions - although I am sure there are not nearly as many as the epidemic in America and throughout Europe. Complusive masterbation and over food consumption certainly aren't good things, but in all due respect, I don't think a comparison to abortion is appropriate.


Certainly, it does start at are oversexualized society. Turning sex into something recreational has lead to an epidemic of unplanned pregnancies where tragically, way to many of those pregnancies end in abortion. I certainly applaud you for what you are doing - there need to be more places like yours.


I dont have all the answers myself. I am glad that this forum has produced so many responses regardless of whether people agree with me or not because it helps stimulate debate.

Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: Contempt toward the mothers does neither them nor you any good. There are presently over 250 responses to...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: Contempt toward the mothers does neither them nor you any good. There are presently over 250 responses to the blog entry where Jill Staek identified the mother in this case, many of which are critical of her as a person (not just critical of the act). If the authors of each of those responses used the time they spent writing the post to pray with sincere charity for the mother and for the end to abortion, it would have far more effect that the blog posts slamming the mother. Not only is she not around to "learn her lesson", but such attitudes aren't going to win over anyone who is pro-abortion -- and they may well cause some who are on the fence to jump off on the other side. Very productive...
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So true, Jerry. In addition, just because a newly-abortive mom doesn't appear to have any immediate misgivings over the abortion of her child, doesn't mean that she will continue on that same path. While I personally know only a few women who publicly (or, at least, within the realms of family and/or friendship) admit to having an abortion, ALL of them have sadness, regret, confusion, or remorse as the years have progress. We need to offer these women (and all post-abortive women) our prayers, love, compassion or we will never change hearts. theheart

Feb 16th 2013 new

[quote]Jerry-74383 said:

"Absolutely! On an individual basis we have to strive for a conversion of heart, preferably before the abortion. The point I was trying to get across in the last paragraph of my previous response (not included in the quote above) is that the condemnations are more likely to harden hearts than convert them."

I agree wholeheartedly with you on this Jerry.

"The portion of my response quoted above wasn't intended to suggest that we not continue to convert individuals either before or after an abortion; I apologize if that wasn't clear."

I didn't get that impression from what you said.

"However, the perceived "right" to an abortion is so ingrained in modern society in much of the world that we need to look at a much broader approach to the problem as well. First and foremost is prayer. After that we have to attack the notion that sex is a commodity to be used at will for our pleasure and that unintended pregnancies are collateral damage."

Yes, I agree with this as well. This is an understanding that can come about through an encounter with Christ, a committment to follow Him and good catechesis. We may never reach perfection on this, in fact, I'm sure we won't, but we can all certainly work thoward these goals.

Feb 16th 2013 new

Only God knows the whole story. Was that woman forced? By friends/family? A doctor trying to avoid a lawsuit if a baby was born with an abnormality? [Apparently that's why that woman was there].

Maybe she was a callous, nasty she-dog, who was out to murder her innocent child, cackling deviantly as she skipped her way to the baby killing mill, maybe she'd had four other abortions and celebrated each year with a "happy abortion day" and had a "no foetus can beat us" bumpersticker on her hyrbid. Or maybe she was a scared, stressed woman, who's family were pressing her, who's friends were telling her "horror" stories about abnormal babies and "poor Jill and James who's kid has downs and is completely out of control", or maybe the doctors and nurses gave her list after list of complications? Maybe her insurance company weasled their way out of paying for health care for baby? Maybe her husband was a jerk. Throw in the usual pregnancy exhaustion and hormones coupled with an overwhelming culture of death and the message it sneds that abortion has been law for 40 years, and you have yourself a melting pot cooking up a recipe for abortion at 33 weeks.

My sympathy now is for her family and friends. To heck with the bugger who murdered her.

But to go to God with that sin marring her soul? If she went with full knowledge, full consent, how can we not feel sorry for her? I doubt the last thought through her mind as she went to sleep on the table was that she would be facing God and her final judgement. Pray for her soul and for those in her life, pray for the doctor who murdered her and everyone involved in that. Yes, her child died, yes her child was murdered. Brutually denied a possible 80 years of life. Maybe they got it wrong and there was nothing wrong with baby, or baby just had a cleft palate.

Maybe the doc was having a bad day, and it could have very easily been someone else. Lord knows a lot of women have died from "safe" abortions.

Yes, there is some blame to be laid upon the mother, but we do not know the extent of that blame. We must show charity in this situation, charity and compassion.

It could be all her fault, yes, of course. Or it might have just been a woman who was stressed and scared who made a stupid decision and it ended up costing not only the life of her child, but her's also.

That's not a sin you want on your soul, and nor is it one we should impose on other's.

We just don't know enough to "blame" her.

Every abortion is an act of murder, but not every woman having an abortion is a murderer.

Feb 16th 2013 new

(Quote) Marianne-100218 said: I cannot speak for a lot of women who choose abortions, but the ones I know over the y...
(Quote) Marianne-100218 said:



I cannot speak for a lot of women who choose abortions, but the ones I know over the years have done it for extemely
greedy reasons. It was because it would interfere with their career or lifestyle. And these are women who were
married. These women were highly aggressive physicians and business women. Another one of them had a lifestyle living in
Monte Carlo and enjoyed the good life while her husband was transferred there. I guess being pregnant would interefere
with wearing her bikini on the beach in France.

Some people just don't get it, when it comes to abortion. That is a human life.

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I know a woman who aborted so she could look good in a bikini.

I know a woman who aborted so she could fit into her wedding dress.

I also know a woman who aborted and hanged herself three weeks later leaving a note that said "I killed my baby".

We just don't know. [Though I'm sure some are more than happy to tell us all the sorid details].

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