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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Feb 13th 2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: Oh. Is that all? The era of the ghetto and the casbah are, thankfully, a ...
(Quote) David-364112 said:


Oh. Is that all?


The era of the ghetto and the casbah are, thankfully, a thing of the distant past. Let's keep it that way.


Religious freedom benefits Catholics. If the state stays out of religion, we're all the better for it. Countries that don't have a First Amendment end up with the state imposing restrictions on religious practice. We're much better off without an established catholic Chruch. The Church will only be tarnished by association with a secular government.

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So, are you, by your silence on the issue deflecting? or assenting that there was no such Catholic monarchy in the occidental world which imposed Catholicism on anyone?

Can you define religious freedom or otherwise post here an authoritative definition (i.e., from your Bishop or from the Pope)?

Apparently even the Popes think that the state should impose restrictions on public religious practice, whether there's an official state Church or not, as shown in recent Papal documents such as the Syllabus of Errors, Dignitatis Humanae (one of the 16 documents promulgated from the Second Vatican Council), and most recently Caritas in Veritate...so, why you think the state should not, I don't understand. I mean, you're essentially saying that Satanists should be allowed publicly to desecrate the Eucharist, commit illicit sexual actions with adults and children as a part of their rites, and sacrifice human beings, as well as be protected by the state in the fulfillment of these religious activities. Even though these things may seem execrable to you and I, it is part of their religious practice (i.e., the duty they believe they owe their god).

It would be a contradiction to say that you're not seemingly advocating such a situation, since you very much seem to be stating that the state should impose no restrictions on religious practice.

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Feb 13th 2013 new

(Quote) Gabor-19025 said: There has been a massive shift in the Church becoming "inclusive" (a word I disl...
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said:



There has been a massive shift in the Church becoming "inclusive" (a word I dislike for many reasons) and yielding to the world. The purported reasons are many and include theories of infiltration by "bad guys" into the Church. Whatever the reasons for the status quo are (am not going to speculate here) the fruits are there to see by all including believing/promoting:

1) All Churches are equal and all forms of worship within the Catholic Church (Charismatic, TLM, Std Novus Ordo etc) are also equal (no unity on this front). This is a great video showing two "equal" types of worship:

www.youtube.com

2) Primacy of conscience is doing whatever you feel like doing as long a you feel comfortable with it. The teachings of the Church are not relevant in making personal decisions in 2013. I always go back to a relevant point of how many on this site do not tick 7 out of 7 for Catholic beliefs although I do respect personal honesty in answering those faith questions.

3) God is good and kind and will never rebuke or punish a sinner-in fact there is no sin.

4) As John pointed out, the Encyclicals of some of the greatest Catholic Popes/Saints in the Church's history are pushed aside because they are no longer "relevant or inclusive." My opinion is that the Encyclical of Pope St Pius X , Pascendi (1907) could easily be reprinted with 2013 on it as it is more relevant than ever.

5) The teachings of Christ and his Church are meant to evolve (eg marriage was once a lifetime commitment and now if things don't work out- get an annulment- God supports it. Those who are not open to pursuing relationships with previously married people are not in communion with the Catholic Church so I have been told). The teachings of the Church must blend in nicely with what society demands or we are free to ignore them or the Church must alter her position.

Modern times have taken centuries of black and white Catholic teaching and dismembered them. The Devil's favourite colour is gray and we have plenty of that to go around.

The Holy Father has a big job ahead of him. May the Holy Spirit guide him, give him strength and may he do God's Will.




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Thank you for stating it so eloquently and plainly, I pray for that skill. I agree that Pascendi is just as relevant now as when St. Pius X gave it to the Magisterium. You're point about colors is spot on, the Prince likes nothing more than to cause division and create confusion, as he is the Prince of lies. I will boldly stick to the Truth that was passed down by the Church through the centuries and not relinquish to this "change" or "updating of the Church" as those are things to be guarded against.

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Feb 13th 2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: So, are you, by your silence on the issue deflecting? or assenting that there was no su...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



So, are you, by your silence on the issue deflecting? or assenting that there was no such Catholic monarchy in the occidental world which imposed Catholicism on anyone?

Can you define religious freedom or otherwise post here an authoritative definition (i.e., from your Bishop or from the Pope)?

Apparently even the Popes think that the state should impose restrictions on public religious practice, whether there's an official state Church or not, as shown in recent Papal documents such as the Syllabus of Errors, Dignitatis Humanae (one of the 16 documents promulgated from the Second Vatican Council), and most recently Caritas in Veritate...so, why you think the state should not, I don't understand. I mean, you're essentially saying that Satanists should be allowed publicly to desecrate the Eucharist, commit illicit sexual actions with adults and children as a part of their rites, and sacrifice human beings, as well as be protected by the state in the fulfillment of these religious activities. Even though these things may seem execrable to you and I, it is part of their religious practice (i.e., the duty they believe they owe their god).

It would be a contradiction to say that you're not seemingly advocating such a situation, since you very much seem to be stating that the state should impose no restrictions on religious practice.

--hide--


Not deflecting, I simply don't know. To clarify, I never said people were forced to convert (at least not in many centuries) to the Catholic faith. But certain non-Catholics living in various Catholic monarchies were subject to terrible and absolutely unwarranted humiliations: Ghettos, yellow stars, stupid hats, special taxes, prohibition from entering various occupations/professions, restrictions on marriage and so on. Among the worst offenders were the Papal States which, thankfully were abolished by military force under Garibaldi. There is simply no place for that sort of thing in the modern world. Being a sovereign state was also presented a lot of opporunities for injustice and corruption - things the Church must avoid. This fairy tale notion that we can return to a catholic state is silly to say the least, I'd go so far as to call it a delusion and not necessarily a sane delusion either.


As for freedom of religion, the definition I am using comes from the First Amendment of the US Constitution - for which we must all be very thankful. Whatever definition comes from the vatican is irrelevent because catholicism is no longer an official religion in just about every country where it formerly was. IMO, the civil government should never interfere in any way with religious practice - whetehr Catholic, Christian, or non-Christian. if it were otherwise, the Catholic Church would eventually suffer from such interference. In the USA at least religious strictures cannot be imposed by law. For this reason, we no longer have blue laws (requiring that businesses not operate on Sundays.) This is just my opinion and I base it in part on my own experiences and preferences as well as on my study of the law. In addition to the foregoing, the US Constution prohibits the establishment of any religion. Again this is a huge blessing for catholics because were a religion to be established, it definitely wouldn't be ours.


Finally, the world is too diverse to have a "Catholic state". And why, for that matter, would anyone want this in the first place?


Jesus said AGAIN AND AGAIN that his kingdom was not of this world. So why must we ignore the godpels and focus on the rulebook?

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Feb 13th 2013 new

There's no reason to go to war over all the back and forth and the silly intellectual catnip which is being posted in this thread.


The purpose of this thread is to comment on the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI and the election of his successor. So let's focus on that. And pray! And have faith.

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Feb 13th 2013 new

(Quote) John-324285 said: The syllabus clearly states that the Catholic church SHOULD be held as the only religion ...
(Quote) John-324285 said:

The syllabus clearly states that the Catholic church SHOULD be held as the only religion of the State. I get that idea from Pius the IX who was affirming prior Church teaching.

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Poor Pius was up to his you-know-what in alligators. His writings reflect the crisis of his era. In the years immediately prior to his birth the French Revolution caused the destruction of churches and the wholesale murder of priests and religious. In his youth, the man who became Pius IX witnessed Napoleon's confiscation of Church peoprty, anti-Catholic edicts, the murder of priests and religious (especially in Spain and Italy) and looting of the treasuries of monsteries and religious orders. He reigned from 1846 - 1878. Two years into his reign, the revolutions of 1848 raged across Europe. The Archbishop of Paris was lynched by a mob and churches throughout France and even the Catholic portions of Germany were ransacked. On the Italian peninsula Cavour and Garibaldi raised an army which defeated the Papal States (good riddance to those!) and incorporated this territory into a unified Italy. By the end of the 1860's Italy was a unified nation and the Pope was a prisoner in the Vatican (until the Lateran Treaty with Mussolini).


OF COURSE Pius would be penning howling directives against these things. Throughout his long life, the roof was crashing down all around him. The west had reached the end of the period in which the Church held worldly territory and authority. IMO, it was a bad idea for the Pope to be a temporal leader to begin with. Jesus said again and again that His kingdom is not of this world. IMO, it was a bad idea to try and make it so.


IMO, Pius was too close in time to the old way to see the good which would eventually be born out of the emerging world. Within a generation or two after Pius's death the Church began to see that democratic and republican forms of government permitted the Church great freedom in which to operate. It took WWII and the inhumane excesses of governments (like Franco's Spain and various dictatorships in Latin America and the Philipines where the Chruch was the established religion) to convince the Cardinals that the Church would suffer guilt by association. So we eventually came back around to working in the pastoral and spiritual realm while trying to exert influence over governments. The Catholic Church, through prayer and faithfulness defeated the Soviet empire in eastern Europe and Russia. They did it without military force or legislation. How? By faith and prayer.


The Church and its leaders are here to promote holiness and to administer the sacraments. They are not here to be involved in government affairs or to acquire sovereign territory. This is my opinion. I'm no Freemason, I'm no liberal. i'm an orthodox Roman catholic and a poor sinner who's trying to find his way. Let the world be what it is. we can only make it better by becoming truly holy ourselves.


rose



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Feb 13th 2013 new

All throughout the history of Christendom, "Catholic monarchs" interfered with and struggled against Church leaders. The investiture controversy. The Avignon Papacy. Thomas Becket. Henry VIII and his terrible hoo-hah. It was not a golden era and it was not a better way.


Keep the government away from any power over or interference with religious activity. This is the battle which will unfold as Obamacare and its directives come into effect. We must pray that the law upholds freedom of conscience and that our bishops and leaders remain steadfast and firm in opposition to these directives.

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Feb 13th 2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: All throughout the history of Christendom, "Catholic monarchs" interfered with and stru...
(Quote) David-364112 said:

All throughout the history of Christendom, "Catholic monarchs" interfered with and struggled against Church leaders. The investiture controversy. The Avignon Papacy. Thomas Becket. Henry VIII and his terrible hoo-hah. It was not a golden era and it was not a better way.


Keep the government away from any power over or interference with religious activity. This is the battle which will unfold as Obamacare and its directives come into effect. We must pray that the law upholds freedom of conscience and that our bishops and leaders remain steadfast and firm in opposition to these directives.

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Do you honestly think that common sense, which really isn't so common, will have any sway with those who are literalistic in their approach, appear to refuse to put things in context or allow for nuances?

Someone objected to Benedict saying that all liturgies were equal in value as if he was saying that the Mormon liturgies, or Jewish liturgies or Lutheran liturgies, etc, were equal to our own.

In fact, all he was saying is that all the approved liturgies of our Church; i.e the Tradional Latin Mass, the Novus Ordo, those of the Easten Catholics as well as the approved Anglican rite are equal in value. One could go so far as to say that those of the Orthodox Churches would also have equal value since they have Apostolic clergy.

To read any more into his statement, is to go out of one's way to find something to complain about because they don't like him personally (as the mildest objection) or on the worst end believe we have not had a valid Pope since Pius XII.

If the objection arises because the person believes the extreme end, then we are faced with someone who has some how fallen for the beliefs of the scismatics exemplfies by the SSPX people.

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Feb 13th 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: They'd say they are the real Catholic Church and that the West is apostate. LOL.
(Quote) John-220051 said:

They'd say they are the real Catholic Church and that the West is apostate. LOL.
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"they" are general, ignorant, stupid and without any undestanding or Faith in God to run HIS Church.

I wouldn't worry about the nebulous "They"

God will choose the man HE wants and thats that.

As for Pope Benedict interfering with the New Pope, he cant and he wont. Once the abdication is offical the ex becomes Cardinal Ratzinger, hes over 80 so cant even vote for the new chap, In an Absolute Theocracy, like all Monarchies, the ex MUST obey the New Pope as any Priest or Lay member. He who sits in the throne of Peter has the power of the throne of Peter. Only he can make infalible statements, only he can decide the direction of the Church, only he can speak officially in the Name of the Church and on Gods behalf.

Cardinal Ratizinger may write what he wants, but unlike the Pope, he is subject to the same rules and guidelines that all theologians are subservient, as only the Pope may make doctrinal and infalible statements.

It is probable the New Pope will consult from time to time with Cardinal Ratzinger, as the Cardinal is the only man living who understands the stress and pressure of the Pontificate. Just as past Presidents are consulted by the ruling President, as only they understand what the President is undergoing. BUT they dont rule, only advise. When Edward VIII abdicated in 1936 he took no role in Government of his younger brother George VI, he was sent silently into obscurity and silience, but was free to be a person he wanted to be, within reason.

Just as Preidents and Kings have Cabinets to help and assist and advise on issues, so the New Pope will have his inner circle that will help him govern.

So chill people, and pray not for the who or the when or the why but for the man who will be chosen and the men who will choose him.

God Bless

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Feb 13th 2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Do you know of any actual example in which a Catholic monarchy forced Catholicism on an...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



Do you know of any actual example in which a Catholic monarchy forced Catholicism on anyone? I can't. To my knowledge, all that was required was that the non-Catholics (like muslims or jews, not speaking of heretics) stay segregated from the Catholics and wear some distinguishing garb, like what was laid out at the Council of Florence. Also, the edict of Nantes, if you recall even granted heretics moral powers, allowing them to work in public offices, etc (by prudential judgment of the king of France).

I think what you're envisioning is more of an oriental notion, which does not show an appreciation for separation of Church and state as the occidentals know of it. An example of this is shown in the iconoclast controversy in the Byzantine east with the Roman emperors mandating specific belief and practice as if the spiritual arm and then enforcing it with the might of the secular arm.

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Chelsea if you read Church history you would find hundreds of examples of Catholicism being imposed on other religions by Monarchs and vice versa.

Queen Isabella of Castile, King Ferdinand of Aragon, the monarchies of Portugal, the Holy Roman States, Russia.St Bartholemews Day Massacre in France against the Hugenuots, the conversion of Moslems and Orthodox in the Balkans in 1940, 1994 and today the forcible conversion of Christians to Moslems in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Western Africa by the Taliban, when and where they are in control.

In the Medievil Church the Jews were given 3 choices throughout Chrismdom all were Monarchies, convert, stay and face crippling fines or die a heretic death (that being burnt alive). You cant swing a chasible in history without hitting forced conversion, pograms or massacres in the name of the church by those doing Gods work.

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Feb 13th 2013 new

(Quote) John-324285 said: Paul. Would Christ Himself kiss the Koran or attend services from another denomination...
(Quote) John-324285 said:




Paul. Would Christ Himself kiss the Koran or attend services from another denomination/faith? If not, why is his Vicar on earth doing so? Also there are many scripture verses that tell us that our God is a jealous God and that we cannot serve two masters. Isn't kissing or showing respect for something that is not truth (koran) giving it some credibility or trying to reconcile a lie (untruth) with the truth (Christ)? Those who try to reconcile the world (any other faith) with the Word are making a vain attempt at something that is entirely impossible. Again there is scripture stating such. Catholics need to stand up to these abuses and call everyone to follow Christ faithfully and only!

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John you seemed to have missed the class on spread the Good News to ALL Men, and do unto others (if you want respect show respect) Christ was not against other religious and the He said to the Faith "Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars' Not tear down all the Roman Temples in Israel. He made space for all even the pagans, He infact welcomed Pagans and encourage His followers to go into their midst and convert them, He NEVER once told the Apostles to rule by the sword, disorder, intollerance, disrecpt but instead Traet all as you wish to be treated. That includes they cultures and their religions

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