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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Hi, Patrick, I read the article which you provided on Queen Isabella, but did not find ...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



Hi, Patrick, I read the article which you provided on Queen Isabella, but did not find any indication of a policy of forced conversions of anyone whatsoever.

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Let it go.


The point is that Catholic monarchies had plenty of severe shortcomings. (Find your own documentary proof.)


The point is that Catholic monarchies were bad enough centuries ago but nowadays they are not only unthinkable but also completely unworkable.


The point is that we should stop chasing after historical pipe-dreams and focus on the here and now with all of the practical constraints which render a Catholic monarchy impossible to re-establish anywhere other than someplace like Andorra or Leichtenstein.


The point is that rather than trying to impose Catholic values and morals through government (to whatever extent that's possible), we should focus instead on the interior - on personal holiness - and on . That is the ONLY way the world will change. We don't need a Catholic governemnt to have a strong and vibrant Church. The early Church thrived under an imperial government which was murderously hostile. After WWII, the Church thrived under Stalinist and post-Stalinist Soviet occupation. So why do we need a Catholic government?


Finally, the only thing a "Catholic" government can do is tarnish the reputation of our Holy Faith while accomplishing little else. Are you so unhappy and frustrated with the world and the state of most catholics that you feel we must resort to coercion to bring people around? That's not right. Don't you see this? Rejoice that the world and our secular governments are strongly at odds with the faith. This is how Jesus told us it would be. He didn't promise us a cakewalk, he called us to be saints in the midst of an evil and hostile world.


theheart

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Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: The point is that rather than trying to impose Catholic values and morals throug...
(Quote) David-364112 said:

The point is that rather than trying to impose Catholic values and morals through government (to whatever extent that's possible), we should focus instead on the interior - on personal holiness - and on . That is the ONLY way the world will change. We don't need a Catholic governemnt to have a strong and vibrant Church. The early Church thrived under an imperial government which was murderously hostile. After WWII, the Church thrived under Stalinist and post-Stalinist Soviet occupation. So why do we need a Catholic government?

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Oops, left a sentence unfinished during editing. Here's the rest of the sentence.


. . . we should focus instead on the interior - on personal holiness - and on teaching Catholics to love God and seek holiness through the grace of God.

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Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: Let it go. The point is that Catholic monarchies had ple...
(Quote) David-364112 said:


Let it go.


The point is that Catholic monarchies had plenty of severe shortcomings. (Find your own documentary proof.)[/quote]

The concept of a Catholic monarchy has no inherent shortcoming, so it's going to be impossible to find documentary proof of what isn't. If you're indicating that the monarchs themselves had shortcomings, so what? We all do.


Quote:
The point is that Catholic monarchies were bad enough centuries ago but nowadays they are not only unthinkable but also completely unworkable.[/quote]

It may be your point, but it comes across as quite based on fantasy rather than reality.


Quote:
The point is that we should stop chasing after historical pipe-dreams and focus on the here and now with all of the practical constraints which render a Catholic monarchy impossible to re-establish anywhere other than someplace like Andorra or Leichtenstein.



I have no investment in monarchism, I was merely interested in why there are so many anti-monarchist sentiments amongst the posters in this thread, since monarchy has proven historically to foster greater human advancement than our technology deceives us into believing that pseudo-democracy does.


[quote]The point is that rather than trying to impose Catholic values and morals through government (to whatever extent that's possible), we should focus instead on the interior - on personal holiness - and on . That is the ONLY way the world will change. We don't need a Catholic governemnt to have a strong and vibrant Church. The early Church thrived under an imperial government which was murderously hostile. After WWII, the Church thrived under Stalinist and post-Stalinist Soviet occupation. So why do we need a Catholic government?




It actually is the responsibility of a specific class of people to impose public morals, they're commonly referred to as government. The remarkable thing about contemporary government (especially the USA) is the cynical notion that the truth of morality cannot be communicated from one human mind to the next, and therefore one cannot know of God except by personal experience. This stems from a post-enlightenment notion that every man can govern himself (which is proven false by the teeming prison populations) according to an objective standard of ethics.

I would answer you, just to name one reason, we need a Catholic government to stifle the number of children murdered each year in elective termination of pregnancy.


[quote]Finally, the only thing a "Catholic" government can do is tarnish the reputation of our Holy Faith while accomplishing little else. Are you so unhappy and frustrated with the world and the state of most catholics that you feel we must resort to coercion to bring people around? That's not right. Don't you see this? Rejoice that the world and our secular governments are strongly at odds with the faith. This is how Jesus told us it would be. He didn't promise us a cakewalk, he called us to be saints in the midst of an evil and hostile world.

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You claim that a Catholic government can only tarnish the reputation of our Holy Faith, but that doesn't seem to be in accord with historical fact. I keep hearing repeated the underlying notion that we are so wise now that we can move beyond our ancestors and look back and laugh at their silliness.

I am not unhappy and frustrated with the world, and what I feel about things doesn't matter one iota in the scheme of things. What is important is that the fruits of the current system are judged and weighed against the fruits of the former systems. I don't expect a cakewalk, that's hardly the point.

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Feb 15th 2013 new

We live in a world that is hostile to Jesus. So did he. So have we always. Who's running things is irrelevant; how we live our lives is the only thing that matters.

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Feb 15th 2013 new

pssst . . . it's an inside job. wink

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Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: Oops, left a sentence unfinished during editing. Here's the rest of the...
(Quote) David-364112 said:


Oops, left a sentence unfinished during editing. Here's the rest of the sentence.


. . . we should focus instead on the interior - on personal holiness - and on teaching Catholics to love God and seek holiness through the grace of God.

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Well, David, most of what I typed in response to you didn't come through when I clicked "submit post." It is probably due to a formatting error on my part.

Basically, what I will take the time to reiterate from what was lost is that I don't have a personal investment in monarchy (whether Catholic or not), but historical fact shows an advantage to human spiritual development in monarchical style governments over what technology-crazed pseudo-democracy offers. Point in fact is the Vatican City-State and the Church itself.

The reason we need some sort of Catholic government, in response to your question, is because the abortion industry needs to be stifled.

Beyond this, I will let it go, as it is not interesting to you to discuss any longer.

I thank you for your patience with me and the fact that you did not deride or ridicule me, but rather engage on an actual human level.

All the best.

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Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Well, David, most of what I typed in response to you didn't come through when I cli...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



Well, David, most of what I typed in response to you didn't come through when I clicked "submit post." It is probably due to a formatting error on my part.

Basically, what I will take the time to reiterate from what was lost is that I don't have a personal investment in monarchy (whether Catholic or not), but historical fact shows an advantage to human spiritual development in monarchical style governments over what technology-crazed pseudo-democracy offers. Point in fact is the Vatican City-State and the Church itself.

The reason we need some sort of Catholic government, in response to your question, is because the abortion industry needs to be stifled.

Beyond this, I will let it go, as it is not interesting to you to discuss any longer.

I thank you for your patience with me and the fact that you did not deride or ridicule me, but rather engage on an actual human level.

All the best.

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Thanks. And I don't mean to dog you but to me, at least, holiness is an inside job. Yes, the external environment does have an effect (either way) but the world will never be holy. We must become holy no matter where we are and under what form of governement we find oursleves.


rose

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Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: Oh. Is that all? The era of the ghetto and the casbah are, thankfully, a ...
(Quote) David-364112 said:


Oh. Is that all?


The era of the ghetto and the casbah are, thankfully, a thing of the distant past. Let's keep it that way.


Religious freedom benefits Catholics. If the state stays out of religion, we're all the better for it. Countries that don't have a First Amendment end up with the state imposing restrictions on religious practice. We're much better off without an established catholic Chruch. The Church will only be tarnished by association with a secular government.

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I will have to agree with one of our Popes on this one."That the State must be separated from the Church is a thesis absolutely false, a most pernicious error."

Pope St. Pius X, Vehementor Nos

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Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Thomas-699657 said: I will have to agree with one of our Popes on this one."That the State must be separated fr...
(Quote) Thomas-699657 said:

I will have to agree with one of our Popes on this one."That the State must be separated from the Church is a thesis absolutely false, a most pernicious error."

Pope St. Pius X, Vehementor Nos

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Here are some examples of a once Monarch who decided to move away from the Catholic Church. They seem to be having a little bit of trouble with the Catholic faith and it seems to be getting worse. There Bishops are even going against the Catholic Church it seems. Only one ArchBishop seems to be holding on to his calling for now.www.lifesitenews.com


www.lifesitenews.com

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Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-624504 said: You are right the Cgurch Administration failed us all especially the victimns if the l...
(Quote) Patrick-624504 said:

You are right the Cgurch Administration failed us all especially the victimns if the laity werent so dogmatically believing that the Priest was above the suns of Man then it could have been stopped earlier. I know from my days at school that some things about the Priest and Nuns were never told. You shut up and took the abuse, physical, mental and/or sexual.

But we didnt because they were Nuns and Priests and we were just nothing but children. And that made you think you would not be believed and afterall they were consecrated and Gods chosen ones, or at least thats what I believed.

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Yes. I do hear that from people brought up catholic. I didnt grow up catholic.But what you say makes perfect sense.

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