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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Thomas-699657 said: I will have to agree with one of our Popes on this one."That the State must be separated fr...
(Quote) Thomas-699657 said:

I will have to agree with one of our Popes on this one."That the State must be separated from the Church is a thesis absolutely false, a most pernicious error."

Pope St. Pius X, Vehementor Nos

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That was then. This is now. How can we, in socieities that are ethnically and religiously heterogenous, have a state religion? Even if it's not impose don others, it's unworkable.

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Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Thomas-699657 said: Here are some examples of a once Monarch who decided to move away from the Catholic Church. They...
(Quote) Thomas-699657 said:

Here are some examples of a once Monarch who decided to move away from the Catholic Church. They seem to be having a little bit of trouble with the Catholic faith and it seems to be getting worse. There Bishops are even going against the Catholic Church it seems. Only one ArchBishop seems to be holding on to his calling for now.www.lifesitenews.com


www.lifesitenews.com

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Once again, holiness cannot and must not be imposed from the top down. That doesn't work. God doesn't operate like that. Holiness only comes from within. It's given to those who seek it, ask for it, plead for it. Pius was railing against the secular and anticlerical democracies of the late 1800's. That was an entirely different situation than today. In France, Church property was being confiscated. In Mexico and other Latin American countries, Churches and convents we appropriated, priests were murdered, and clerical garb was forbidden in public - it still is. Socialist governments in Belgium and other countries passed laws restricting the Church's activities and prohibiting them from operating schools. THIS is what Pius had to deal with. Trotting out this pronouncement now, more than a century later, is disingenuous to say the least. The situation he wrote about no longer applies (for the most part). Things have radically changed. All western societies are too heterogenous for a Catholic or Christian republic to be workable. What good would it do anyway? Paul VI and the council realized this and set about disentangling the Church from secular governments and disestablishing it wherever possible. If the Pope and the Curia acknowledged it was time to change course, then why can't we? Why cherish a pipe-dream about a romanticized past? The Church took a long hard look at things and decided it wanted OUT of secular governance. This was wise and has worked well.



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Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Thomas-699657 said: I will have to agree with one of our Popes on this one."That the State must be separated fr...
(Quote) Thomas-699657 said:

I will have to agree with one of our Popes on this one."That the State must be separated from the Church is a thesis absolutely false, a most pernicious error."

Pope St. Pius X, Vehementor Nos

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'that the state MUST BE separated from the church' is a long leap from catholicism being the state religion.

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Feb 15th 2013 new

[quote]David-364112 said:


Once again, holiness cannot and must not be imposed from the top down. That doesn't work. God doesn't operate like that. Holiness only comes from within. It's given to those who seek it, ask for it, plead for it. Pius was railing against the secular and anticlerical democracies of the late 1800's. That was an entirely different situation than today. In France, Church property was being confiscated. In Mexico and other Latin American countries, Churches and convents we appropriated, priests were murdered, and clerical garb was forbidden in public - it still is. Socialist governments in Belgium and other countries passed laws restricting the Church's activities and prohibiting them from operating schools. THIS is what Pius had to deal with. Trotting out this pronouncement now, more than a century later, is disingenuous to say the least. The situation he wrote about no longer applies (for the most part). Things have radically changed. All western societies are too heterogenous for a Catholic or Christian republic to be workable. What good would it do anyway? Paul VI and the council realized this and set about disentangling the Church from secular governments and disestablishing it wherever possible. If the Pope and the Curia acknowledged it was time to change course, then why can't we? Why cherish a pipe-dream about a romanticized past? The Church took a long hard look at things and decided it wanted OUT of secular governance. This was wise and has worked well.


The same things are attacking the Church as back then and it will be getting alot worse in the coming years as long as we Catholics let secularist push us into the shadows in the west. It has happened so many times before and it is coming around again in the west. They already do it in so many countries already. Soon they will be killing and aresting or taking away land from Catholics in the west. Maybe we won't see it in our lives, but it is not going to get better unless we Catholics start waking up to the signs of the times we are approaching. Jesus said you can read the signs of the weather, so how is it you don't read signs of the times you are living in.

A Catholic monarch is the ultimate goal, is it not??? With Jesus at the head as King. Doesn't sound like a pipe dream to me. We Catholics use to teach and pass on our faith, now half of all Catholics don't even make there conformation any more. This can only Change if we get involved and get the word out and stand up for our faith. A good Catholic monarch is the best Government this planet has ever seen. We should not live in a country where you have to hide you faith or be marginalised. This only happens if we let it happen.

God helps those who help themselves and we have been letting him down for to long. We are living in a time where Catholics have to bare witness to the faith. The Church has been making deals with the devil and soon the devil is going to close the door and He really has stated doing that as of late don't you think. I don't think Saint Peter, Paul and early Catholics were marted for practicing there faith for just praying. I think they were out there making some noise in the public square out in the open. Most Catholics are to embarrassed to do this, never mind even to talk about religion.

That's a pretty scary thing to be true. Catholic Monarchs only failed when the people under them and at the head of them Failed to keep God at the top. This is why, what we have is surely going to fail, with out God at the top. We Catholics have aloud this government to take God out of the public square and put Him in everyone's little private box. This is what we have failed at, even our Four Fathers new this American experiment would not work if we aloud this to happen.

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Feb 15th 2013 new

Sounds like you're ready for war. But all we need be is holy. God will take care of us. Catholics have existed and thrived under hostile regimes.


Your monarchy is a non-starter. I have no idea where you think one can be established.

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Feb 16th 2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Hi, Patrick, I read the article which you provided on Queen Isabella, but did not find ...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



Hi, Patrick, I read the article which you provided on Queen Isabella, but did not find any indication of a policy of forced conversions of anyone whatsoever.

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For pitiies sake woman, dig deeper its in the Vatican Archive.

http://www.vatican.va

I am supplying signposts not a lecture on Socio-Religious conflict and cohesion. I have my Degrees so Ive been there done that THINK FOR YOUR SELF and dig deep. Hint look up the History of the Inquisition and WHO and WHY they were invited into Spain. Or perhaps you dont believe the Churches gestapo didnt forcibly convert people, and before you say it I know they werent monarchs but they acted with the monarchs support. Understand I am not teaching Chirch history so I expect people to dig and use their God given brain. Please

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Feb 16th 2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: Let it go. The point is that Catholic monarchies had ple...
(Quote) David-364112 said:


Let it go.


The point is that Catholic monarchies had plenty of severe shortcomings. (Find your own documentary proof.)


The point is that Catholic monarchies were bad enough centuries ago but

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Thanks David

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Feb 16th 2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: Once again, holiness cannot and must not be imposed from the top down. That doesn...
(Quote) David-364112 said:


Once again, holiness cannot and must not be imposed from the top down. That doesn't work. God doesn't operate like that. Holiness only comes from within. It's given to those who seek it, ask for it, plead for it. Pius was railing against the secular and anticlerical democracies of the late 1800's. That was an entirely different situation than today. In France, Church property was being confiscated. In Mexico and other Latin American countries, Churches and convents we appropriated, priests were murdered, and clerical garb was forbidden in public - it still is. Socialist governments in Belgium and other countries passed laws restricting the Church's activities and prohibiting them from operating schools. THIS is what Pius had to deal with. Trotting out this pronouncement now, more than a century later, is disingenuous to say the least. The situation he wrote about no longer applies (for the most part). Things have radically changed. All western societies are too heterogenous for a Catholic or Christian republic to be workable. What good would it do anyway? Paul VI and the council realized this and set about disentangling the Church from secular governments and disestablishing it wherever possible. If the Pope and the Curia acknowledged it was time to change course, then why can't we? Why cherish a pipe-dream about a romanticized past? The Church took a long hard look at things and decided it wanted OUT of secular governance. This was wise and has worked well.



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Holiness comes from within its not imposed, taught, or learned. Its a Strong sence of Faith for which many martyrs have died.

Either you are or you are not Holy, Thats between you and God

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Feb 16th 2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: Sounds like you're ready for war. But all we need be is holy. God will take care of us. Catho...
(Quote) David-364112 said:

Sounds like you're ready for war. But all we need be is holy. God will take care of us. Catholics have existed and thrived under hostile regimes.


Your monarchy is a non-starter. I have no idea where you think one can be established.

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Before you two spit the dummy and throw your toys out of the playpen and start Jihad/Crusade/Coup d'etate remember I believe Abraham Linclon said "A fissh rots from the head down"

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Feb 16th 2013 new

(Quote) Tom-112790 said: Yes. I do hear that from people brought up catholic. I didnt grow up catholic.But what you ...
(Quote) Tom-112790 said:



Yes. I do hear that from people brought up catholic. I didnt grow up catholic.But what you say makes perfect sense.

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It was since they were consecrated and made solem vows in a Church before a Bishop and in Gods presence, they would never risk eternal damnation by breaking those vows. Unfortunately many a pychopath and sociopath made it into many Orders, and lacked conscience and will to be anything but selfcentred selfserving servants of the Evil One.

It was seen as a sin to challenge a Priest or Religious and people would always back them against you.

It was my generation which broke that mould and asked why? They are just people, ordaned yes and due respect but they werent/arent God and are failible and subject to weakness.

Out of my class of 21. 15 have left the Church, only 6 remain Catholic and continue to be active. Even I took a sabatical from God when I left school because of my experiences, and the hypocrisy I saw at the time. University was a time deep thought about the Church and my place in it. I eventually returned by choice and need, acccepting the Administrations and the Clergy are not the Church, Holy Mother Church is the teachings and actions of Christ the Infallible not Man the exile from Eden. But the wound still exsists, as do es the questioning.

God Bless you

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