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Apr 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Mick-929473 said: Anyone who lauds Hugh Hefner is "of the flesh" which is contrary to the Spirit.
(Quote) Mick-929473 said:

Anyone who lauds Hugh Hefner is "of the flesh" which is contrary to the Spirit.

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I've heard Christopher West speak in person, and he has brought up Hugh Hefner in his conferences. Christopher West DOES NOT, DOES NOT, DOES NOT, laud Hugh Hefner!! What Christopher has said is JPII and Hugh Hefner came to realize the "disease" of human sexuality it the 60s, but both had very different diagnosis on how to solve it. Christopher West clearly refers to the Playboy Lifestyle as the "dumpster diet" and Theology of the Body as the "heavenly banquet", and very clearly says that he would take the "heavenly banquet" any day over the "dumpster diet".

Yes Christopher West uses a different language, and his approach is to "dumb it down" and make it more accessible. To the hard-core academic / theologian Christopher West is not the right source (his approach is very different), but for someone who wants to understand Theology of the Body without doing an indepth theology / academic study of the material Christopher West does do a very good job.

All of his books come with an imprimiter so despite his many critics, ALL of his books are recognized as being faithful to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Apr 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Tom-112790 said: Good point. In this internet age especially,- 'editing' to make points one way or another h...
(Quote) Tom-112790 said:

Good point. In this internet age especially,- 'editing' to make points one way or another has become epidemic. So its important to check what was actually said and in what context.

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The Hefner comment in some respects reminds me of John Paul II when he introduced the concept of "adultry of the heart" and suggested that a husband (or wife for that matter) could be guilty of committing adultry of the heart with his (or her) own spouse. When understood this is a beautiful statement, and is the very esence of Catholic marriage.


You read the meadia reports of his general audience from the time, and the headlines are "Pope is done on Marriage and Sex". It couldn't have been further from the truth. The Holy Father was calling people to an authentic view of love and sex (marriage).

Apr 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Peter-793888 said: I've heard Christopher West speak in person, and he has brought up Hugh Hefner in hi...
(Quote) Peter-793888 said:

I've heard Christopher West speak in person, and he has brought up Hugh Hefner in his conferences. Christopher West DOES NOT, DOES NOT, DOES NOT, laud Hugh Hefner!! What Christopher has said is JPII and Hugh Hefner came to realize the "disease" of human sexuality it the 60s, but both had very different diagnosis on how to solve it. Christopher West clearly refers to the Playboy Lifestyle as the "dumpster diet" and Theology of the Body as the "heavenly banquet", and very clearly says that he would take the "heavenly banquet" any day over the "dumpster diet".

Yes Christopher West uses a different language, and his approach is to "dumb it down" and make it more accessible. To the hard-core academic / theologian Christopher West is not the right source (his approach is very different), but for someone who wants to understand Theology of the Body without doing an indepth theology / academic study of the material Christopher West does do a very good job.

All of his books come with an imprimiter so despite his many critics, ALL of his books are recognized as being faithful to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

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I am glad he is more clear in person but the book I bought for my Kindle did not have eirther the Nihil Obstat or the Imprimatur. Based on what people have posted it must of been the exception. The title of the book is:


"Heaven’s Song Sexual Love as it was Meant to Be"


It is based on material JPII wrote on TOB but never presented. It must not of been "just right" for the Church.


Mick

Apr 6th 2013 new

(Quote) Mick-929473 said: "Heaven’s Song Sexual Love as it was Meant to Be" It is based on materi...
(Quote) Mick-929473 said:

"Heaven’s Song Sexual Love as it was Meant to Be"


It is based on material JPII wrote on TOB but never presented. It must not of been "just right" for the Church.

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I have that book, in fact its the one Christopher West autographed for me at one of the conferences that I attended. You're right I do not see the Imprimatur on that book, and I'm not sure why. That said, the forward was written by Most Reverend Robert Carlson, Bishop of Saginaw, and the acknowledgements pay tribute to a number of priests who assisted Christopher in writting the book. Perhaps one of the reasons it lacks the Imprimiter is this book includes personal reflections based on Christopher West talking to a number of people throughout his travels.

Personally I'd still recommend the book, I thought it was a good read!

Apr 6th 2013 new

(Quote) Lisa-910908 said: I have some issues with Christopher's presentation of Theology of the Body. There are...
(Quote) Lisa-910908 said:

I have some issues with Christopher's presentation of Theology of the Body. There are other resources that are less troublesome. I was at one of his presentations about 15 years ago and was very disturbed by his suggesting that if we truly believe we are redeemed we should have no problem with nudity in the home and in the midst of Christians. I grew up in a home with rampant nudity and it was quite damaging. I spoke with the man travelling with him to find out if this was really what he meant. He said very definitely and they have open nudity in their home. For awhile after the talk, I was less modest around my own daughter, but learned through experience that it was harmful to her. To suggest that if we really believe that Jesus redeemed our bodies on the cross because he was crucified nude, we would practice nudity in our own lives, is harmful. It might work in his home, but it has had devastating effects in my family.

I have heard that he no longer teaches this in his talks, but I don't know for sure.

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I have never heard of anyone who professed to be Catholic advocating in-home nudism before! That is horrible. I think the moral theologian Fr. Heribert Jone may have had a thing or two to say this this lay man about advocating such disordered behavior!


Apr 6th 2013 new

(Quote) Joan-529855 said: A deacon at my church, and the father-in-law of our diocesan marriage and family director, is marr...
(Quote) Joan-529855 said:

A deacon at my church, and the father-in-law of our diocesan marriage and family director, is married to a woman that had a stroke shortly after the birth of their 4th child. He not only cared for his sickly wife, he also was the sole caretaker of their 4 young children. There was no sex; does that mean that their marriage was any "less" of a marriage than that of the marriage where the husband and wife had frequent intercourse? On the contrary, their marriage was an example of "perfect love" as described by St. Thomas Aquinas, "to will the good of the other".

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Christopher (at least in his live talks) clearly points out that there are perfectly valid reasons to obstain from sex, and it is the healthy and loving thing to do. In fact, at one of the talks I went to Christopher even suggested that periodic absitance might be good for the marriage.


I also spoke to Christopher 1-on-1 after one of his conferences about infertility and sexless marriages, and he very openly stated that in his live talks he focuses more on the "normal" then the exception; however, he has said that marriage being oriented toward sex (and its true - just look at the questions of intent to marry) a marriage where the couple struggles with infertility and lack of sex can be very painful, but it is no less a valid marriage then the couple that is freely choosing to engage in the marital act on a regular basis.

As long as the couple can engage in the marital act at the time they say "I do" it is a valid marriage, and struggles such as not being able to come together, and infertility can be seen as the couples Cross to bear, and when embraced, the Cross is the ultimate sign of love.

Apr 6th 2013 new

One of the things that Christopher West likes to say at his live talks is worth repeating, because I personally think it's brilliant (especially to those who are not married or have visions of what married life will be like).

He starts off by telling the joke that there are 4 rings to marriage, 1 engagement ring, 2 wedding rings, and after that, the suffering. As the audience does a mix between laughter, and some shocked faces he normally says "I'm willing to bet that the married couples in the room are the ones who are not laughing right now."


He then goes onto add that anyone who thinks true love does not require true sacrafice does not understand what love is, and should get down on their knees and spend time contemplating the crucifix.

I know there are those that are appaled to hear a joke like that about marriage, but it is true, love requires sacrafice.

Apr 6th 2013 new

(Quote) Lisa-910908 said: I was at one of his presentations about 15 years ago and was very disturbed by his suggesting tha...
(Quote) Lisa-910908 said:

I was at one of his presentations about 15 years ago and was very disturbed by his suggesting that if we truly believe we are redeemed we should have no problem with nudity in the home and in the midst of Christians.

--hide--


I can't speak to what Christopher said 15 years ago, but I do know how he is addressing this topic in recent live confernces. He does not suggest that nudity in the home is fine, but he does say that we normally view the body as being bad because it's capable of sin.

The example he uses now is someone is in the bathroom / bedroom with the door closed, and the spouse or family member knocks and says "Are you decent, can I come in?". He takes issue with people saying "No I'm not decent" as he suggests a more appropriate answer would be "Yes I am decent, but before you come in let me grab a towel to cover myself." The difference is we recognize that the human body fully naked OR fully clothed is decent; however, like in the Book of Genesis we recognize that nudity can (doesn't always) be an invitation for sin, and thus the need for "fig leaves".

Apr 6th 2013 new

(Quote) Peter-793888 said: (Quote) Lisa-910908 said: I was at one of his presentations about 15 years...
(Quote) Peter-793888 said:

Quote:
Lisa-910908 said:

I was at one of his presentations about 15 years ago and was very disturbed by his suggesting that if we truly believe we are redeemed we should have no problem with nudity in the home and in the midst of Christians.



I can't speak to what Christopher said 15 years ago, but I do know how he is addressing this topic in recent live confernces. He does not suggest that nudity in the home is fine, but he does say that we normally view the body as being bad because it's capable of sin.

The example he uses now is someone is in the bathroom / bedroom with the door closed, and the spouse or family member knocks and says "Are you decent, can I come in?". He takes issue with people saying "No I'm not decent" as he suggests a more appropriate answer would be "Yes I am decent, but before you come in let me grab a towel to cover myself." The difference is we recognize that the human body fully naked OR fully clothed is decent; however, like in the Book of Genesis we recognize that nudity can (doesn't always) be an invitation for sin, and thus the need for "fig leaves".

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Christopher was correct in saying that we wear fig leaves to cover our shame and in a perfect world that would not happen. We are not living in a perfect world yet however. He thinks we can just "will" ourselves not to sin. Unfortunately, like St Paul says "we do the evil we do not want to do." Which means we often sin (and do not always realize it). We have to wait until Jesus removes our sinful nature (both shame... and lust) before we can act in the manner he describes. We cannot will ourselves not to lust or be full of shame.


The good news is that Jesus promises, in the diary of St. Faustina, to remove our sinful nature if we go to the confessional and confess our sins. We can also beg for mercy when we sin and later regret it. It glorifies Him.


Mick



Apr 6th 2013 new

(Quote) Mick-929473 said: Christopher was correct in saying that we wear fig leaves to cover our shame and...
(Quote) Mick-929473 said:

Christopher was correct in saying that we wear fig leaves to cover our shame and in a perfect world that would not happen. We are not living in a perfect world yet however. He thinks we can just "will" ourselves not to sin. Unfortunately, like St Paul says "we do the evil we do not want to do." Which means we often sin (and do not always realize it). We have to wait until Jesus removes our sinful nature (both shame... and lust) before we can act in the manner he describes. We cannot will ourselves not to lust or be full of shame.


The good news is that Jesus promises, in the diary of St. Faustina, to remove our sinful nature if we go to the confessional and confess our sins. We can also beg for mercy when we sin and later regret it. It glorifies Him.


Mick

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Of course we will not be made perfect until after the resurrection.


Mick

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