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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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02/24/2013 new
(Quote) Jan-672216 said: Marianne what I have heard is that it has been presented to people, and some still do follow this...
(Quote) Jan-672216 said:



Marianne what I have heard is that it has been presented to people, and some still do follow this line of thinking, that there are primarily two states of life - two vocations - people can be called to - the married life, or the religious life. In the past there has not been much acceptance of a "vocation" to the single life.



While I have heard about some priests erring by having an adult heterosexual affair, I have not heard about it on the level we are hearing about the homosexual crisis.



And, again, I wonder if it is not a case for the Church to look at allowing our priests to marry again? Eastern Orthodox priests are REQUIRED to be married before being assigned to a parish. The only Orthodox priests that do not marry are those who enter the monastic life. We allow our Eastern Rite Catholic priests to marry. It is not a definitive doctrine of the Church that our priests cannot marry. It just seems to me, given what we have seen in the Church around the world with the abuse scandals that it might be a prudent thing for the Church to take a look at again.

--hide--


We cannot assume that a homosexual priest would present any problems at all. It would be unfair to assume that a homosexual priest or any other homosexual Catholic is practicing their inclination.

In this respect, I see nothing wrong with a break from the Catholic tradition of vocational choices. A homosexual could commit to neither vocation, marriage or an order, and remain a single Catholic lay person. I think to enter into either knowing that there is an insufficient calling, is untruthful to self, and to others.

I am unsure regarding the church's view on homosexual male-female companionship marriages.
02/24/2013 new

(Quote) Jan-672216 said: And I have never heard of this problem in the Protestant communities - not of the magn...
(Quote) Jan-672216 said:


And I have never heard of this problem in the Protestant communities - not of the magnitude we have seen in worldwide in the Catholic Church.

--hide--
That's because the mainstream media are like sharks that smell blood in the water regarding abuse stories within the Catholic Church. It isn't news when Protestant clergy do the same thing:

suite101.com

...and the Ultra-Orthodox community:

www.theatlanticwire.com

02/24/2013 new
(Quote) Jan-672216 said: Marianne what I have heard is that it has been presented to people, and some still do follow this...
(Quote) Jan-672216 said:



Marianne what I have heard is that it has been presented to people, and some still do follow this line of thinking, that there are primarily two states of life - two vocations - people can be called to - the married life, or the religious life. In the past there has not been much acceptance of a "vocation" to the single life.



While I have heard about some priests erring by having an adult heterosexual affair, I have not heard about it on the level we are hearing about the homosexual crisis.



And, again, I wonder if it is not a case for the Church to look at allowing our priests to marry again? Eastern Orthodox priests are REQUIRED to be married before being assigned to a parish. The only Orthodox priests that do not marry are those who enter the monastic life. We allow our Eastern Rite Catholic priests to marry. It is not a definitive doctrine of the Church that our priests cannot marry. It just seems to me, given what we have seen in the Church around the world with the abuse scandals that it might be a prudent thing for the Church to take a look at again.

--hide--


The only problem with married clergy is giving them a big enough salary to take care of their families. My Melkite parish has a wonderful married priest, but he has to work a secular job to pay the bills.

He concelebrates the Divine Liturgy on Sundays. The Orthodox have the same problem. Many of their priests are part-time. I knew an Orthodox priest who worked at UPS to pay the bills.
02/24/2013 new
(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said: We cannot assume that a homosexual priest would present any problems at all. It would be unfair to a...
(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said:

We cannot assume that a homosexual priest would present any problems at all. It would be unfair to assume that a homosexual priest or any other homosexual Catholic is practicing their inclination.



In this respect, I see nothing wrong with a break from the Catholic tradition of vocational choices. A homosexual could commit to neither vocation, marriage or an order, and remain a single Catholic lay person. I think to enter into either knowing that there is an insufficient calling, is untruthful to self, and to others.



I am unsure regarding the church's view on homosexual male-female companionship marriages.
--hide--


The ancient canons of the Church allowed clerical marriages with the caveat that the priest could not have sexual relations with his wife.
02/24/2013 new

(Quote) Peter-449116 said: That's because the mainstream media are like sharks that smell blood in the water regarding a...
(Quote) Peter-449116 said:

That's because the mainstream media are like sharks that smell blood in the water regarding abuse stories within the Catholic Church. It isn't news when Protestant clergy do the same thing:

suite101.com

...and the Ultra-Orthodox community:

www.theatlanticwire.com

--hide--

+

Thank you Peter - I appreciate your post and the links to the articles you provided. Seems like these articles offer a bit of a more balanced perspective. Sin is everywhere - God is greater and will bring a greater good from all this evil.

Heard an excellent homily today on the Transfiguration. Our pastor proposed Jesus let the three disciples see Him transfigured to give them a lens through which to view the world - and the coming events. He offers that same lens to us today. The lens: Jesus is King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Prince of Peace. As His disciples witnessed His torture and terrible death, that lens gave them faith and hope. That lens gives me faith and hope at this minute that, through all of the ugliness, all of the sinfulness in the Church (my own included) and outside of the Church if I can but keep my eyes on Him He will triumph - He has triumphed - over all evil.

02/24/2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: The only problem with married clergy is giving them a big enough salary to take care of their fam...
(Quote) John-220051 said:

The only problem with married clergy is giving them a big enough salary to take care of their families. My Melkite parish has a wonderful married priest, but he has to work a secular job to pay the bills.

He concelebrates the Divine Liturgy on Sundays. The Orthodox have the same problem. Many of their priests are part-time. I knew an Orthodox priest who worked at UPS to pay the bills.
--hide--

Since most Catholic communities are larger than teh communities of the Eastern Rites, I wonder if that would be such a problem?

02/24/2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: The ancient canons of the Church allowed clerical marriages with the caveat that the priest could...
(Quote) John-220051 said:

The ancient canons of the Church allowed clerical marriages with the caveat that the priest could not have sexual relations with his wife.
--hide--

I have heard that before John, or something similar, but have never seen concrete evidence of it. If I am not mistaken, Eastern Orthodox priests have always married and had families - and we used to all be part of one unified Church. Why would there have been different rules for East and West before the Great Schism?

In any case, this is an issue for the Holy Spirit to work out through the Hierarchy of our Church. May God's Holy Will be done now and through eternity - in Jesus Holy Name - Amen!

02/24/2013 new
(Quote) Jan-672216 said: Since most Catholic communities are larger than teh communities of the Eastern R...
(Quote) Jan-672216 said:





Since most Catholic communities are larger than teh communities of the Eastern Rites, I wonder if that would be such a problem?

--hide--


I just know what they pay the celibates. You could get a job at McDonald's for that. The Episcopal priests who have become Catholic priests have been shocked at their canonical responsibilities. For whatever reason being a Catholic priest is more difficult than being a Protestant minister.
02/24/2013 new
(Quote) Jan-672216 said: I have heard that before John, or something similar, but have never seen concret...
(Quote) Jan-672216 said:





I have heard that before John, or something similar, but have never seen concrete evidence of it. If I am not mistaken, Eastern Orthodox priests have always married and had families - and we used to all be part of one unified Church. Why would there have been different rules for East and West before the Great Schism?



In any case, this is an issue for the Holy Spirit to work out through the Hierarchy of our Church. May God's Holy Will be done now and through eternity - in Jesus Holy Name - Amen!

--hide--


The hierarchy was decentralized prior to the Great Schism. It wasn't until St. Gregory VII about 20 years after the Great Schism that you started seeing a centralization of the Church's functions.

Celibacy rules were by ecclesiastical province. The Sixth Ecumenical Council at Trullo ruled in 692 that non-celibate clergy could be ordained. The canon was never approved by the Pope at the time, but it serves as the basis for the Eastern Code of Canon Law's allowance for married clergy.

The Eastern hierarchy only looked to Rome when they had issues they couldn't solve among themselves. They were autocephalous meaning that their patriarchs and metropolitans were elected without any need for papal confirmation just like the Orthodox patriarchs are today.

The patriarchs merely announced their election to the Pope who did vice versa.
02/24/2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: I did read it and found it interesting It pretty well confirmed what I had suspect...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

I did read it and found it interesting

It pretty well confirmed what I had suspected when the first stories started circulating about the abuse here.

I note that you question my statements about the frequency of the problem in other religions. If I could remember, I would refer you to the actualy sources. But do a diligent search and you will find them.

One thing we need to keep in mind, aside from the scandal itself, is the fact that it is being used by enemies of the Church to try and destroy the Church. So as bad as th4e scandal is, it is blown totally out of proportion towards that end.

Although it is true that our Church has, until recently, generally prospered here, this country has not been overly friendly to the Church since its founding. When major migrations from Catholic Europe took place, the anti-Catholicism became markedly overt.

The coming to maturity of the 60's and 70's generation, the most destructive in history, and their "if it feels good do it", mentality; their destruction of all standards of human conduct supposedly because of the hypocrisy of the previous generations; and their hedonistic life style; found only one institution standing in the way and preaching the sinfulness of all of it. Hence the need to destroy the Church.

In the late middle ages, a general collapse within the Church; i.e the selling of indulgences and all the other of Luther's 99 points led to the Reformationm. After the reformation, scandals withing the Church were generally local in nature and peculiar to a particular society; for example the Magdalene houses for wayward women in Ireland.

The 60's and 70's, was not so much a breakdown within the Church. But it was and is a breakdown in society in general and world wide in scope. Naturally it infected the laity in every religion. Add to that things peculiar to any given country for example, the draft dodgers in the US who sought out every means to escape the mandatory call to serve our country, and you had a natural recipe for disaster.

It is an old axiom, " A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." The lowering of educational standards is a world wide phenomena. What results is adults in general with many degrees who are trained like human computers, able to spout one unrelated fact after another with absolutely no ability to apply rational thought and critical thinking to create anything worth while from all those memorized facts.

Hence we see, supposedly educated people who believe and or weave all kinds of conspiracy theories. We see examples of that in these forums. For example, Pope Benedict did not resign because he felt he was getting to old and feeble physically and mentally to effectively lead the Church but it must be because some cabal within the Vatican has forced this. Whether that cabal is composed of homosexuals, liberals, Conservatives, Masons, Satanists, etc. doesn't matter. The only thing that does matter is that there must be a conspiracy because reality is too simple.

--hide--




Actually in more recent times Church scandals have been very extensive. The abuses in the Magdalene laundries were going on at the same time as the horrors of the Duplessis orphans in Canada. Discipline in the American Church was falling decades before Vatican II. One is led to conclude that the Curia was being infested (or more infested than previously) by degenerate prelates who, in turn, appointed other degenerate prelates to dioceses around the world. The Church is being disemboweled from within. I personally believe that there is a corrupt, pagan financial aristocracy in Italy that has been at war against the Church for centuries. John Paul I referred to these people as the "ancients of Venice."

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