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A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Thomas More

Feb 25th 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: The hierarchy was decentralized prior to the Great Schism. It wasn't until St. Gregory VII ab...
(Quote) John-220051 said:

The hierarchy was decentralized prior to the Great Schism. It wasn't until St. Gregory VII about 20 years after the Great Schism that you started seeing a centralization of the Church's functions.

Celibacy rules were by ecclesiastical province. The Sixth Ecumenical Council at Trullo ruled in 692 that non-celibate clergy could be ordained. The canon was never approved by the Pope at the time, but it serves as the basis for the Eastern Code of Canon Law's allowance for married clergy.

The Eastern hierarchy only looked to Rome when they had issues they couldn't solve among themselves. They were autocephalous meaning that their patriarchs and metropolitans were elected without any need for papal confirmation just like the Orthodox patriarchs are today.

The patriarchs merely announced their election to the Pope who did vice versa.
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So John do you have access to reliable documentation you could share a link to that authoratatively states that while Catholic bishops and priests were once allowed to be married they were required to renounce normal marital relationships?

Feb 25th 2013 new

(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said: A couple of days ago I watched a program on this issue on a cable channel. Usually I don't watc...
(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said: A couple of days ago I watched a program on this issue on a cable channel. Usually I don't watch much TV at all, but this program was striking and held my interest.

It featured a priest who oversaw a Catholic school for the deaf in the USA in the 1960's; it was a boarding school. The children were sent there to learn how to sign and communicate with the outside world.

There was a well-liked priest there who had the consistent habit of visiting the most vulnerable boys, (those whose parents did not sign), at night while they were sleeping. There were MANY witnesses to that effect, but nothing was done about it even though the boys complained and reported to adults what was happening.

Luckily, the Lord God granted several of these boys the self-esteem sufficient to begin a campaign to remove the demon priest.

My heart went out to these now grown-up men. They were so brave to do what was clearly the right thing to do, even though they were children at the time. They were thinking of other younger deaf boys, and how they should be able to attend school without fear! VERY BRAVE AND THOUGHTFUL FOR OTHERS!

As adults, one of these men found and confronted the demon priest, who had abused him and others repeatedly while he was a student at the deaf school, and told him, "You go to prison NOW!!!!" It was very striking to hear a deaf man using his voice with that kind of intensity.

I do believe that once it can be proven that a cleric has moved to such horrific acts, no doubt, he should be removed from the priesthood, and handed over to the secular courts for trial, as any other criminal would be treated. Once sunk to such horrific low behavior, he is no longer a person of God; but a demon to be set apart from others.

It is true that the Catholic church is a sitting duck for false claims, and our enemies would try to bring us down, but if there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, that these types of things are happening, they must be addressed, or face losing the faith to poor judgement regarding the lay.
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Jacqueline this is a heartbreaking story. What makes the abuse scandals at least doubly horrific is the fact that the abuse was reported and in many instances not acted upon by those who had the repsonsibility to protect the flock. We all know this now. It is very painful.

Feb 25th 2013 new

(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said: We cannot assume that a homosexual priest would present any problems at all. It would be un...
(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said:

We cannot assume that a homosexual priest would present any problems at all. It would be unfair to assume that a homosexual priest or any other homosexual Catholic is practicing their inclination.

In this respect, I see nothing wrong with a break from the Catholic tradition of vocational choices. A homosexual could commit to neither vocation, marriage or an order, and remain a single Catholic lay person. I think to enter into either knowing that there is an insufficient calling, is untruthful to self, and to others.

I am unsure regarding the church's view on homosexual male-female companionship marriages.
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Jacqueline I agree that we cannot assume a homosexual priest would present a problem as far as abusing children or teens, but according to the thinking of the Vatican there are other concerns a homosexual priest might present: www.vatican.va

I agree there is nothing wrong with breaking from Catholic tradition on vocational choices in this instance and that choosing a celibate and single lay life would be more in conformity with a path to holiness.

Feb 25th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: I did read it and found it interesting It pretty well confirmed what I had suspect...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

I did read it and found it interesting

It pretty well confirmed what I had suspected when the first stories started circulating about the abuse here.

I note that you question my statements about the frequency of the problem in other religions. If I could remember, I would refer you to the actualy sources. But do a diligent search and you will find them.

One thing we need to keep in mind, aside from the scandal itself, is the fact that it is being used by enemies of the Church to try and destroy the Church. So as bad as th4e scandal is, it is blown totally out of proportion towards that end.

Although it is true that our Church has, until recently, generally prospered here, this country has not been overly friendly to the Church since its founding. When major migrations from Catholic Europe took place, the anti-Catholicism became markedly overt.

The coming to maturity of the 60's and 70's generation, the most destructive in history, and their "if it feels good do it", mentality; their destruction of all standards of human conduct supposedly because of the hypocrisy of the previous generations; and their hedonistic life style; found only one institution standing in the way and preaching the sinfulness of all of it. Hence the need to destroy the Church.

In the late middle ages, a general collapse within the Church; i.e the selling of indulgences and all the other of Luther's 99 points led to the Reformation. After the reformation, scandals withing the Church were generally local in nature and peculiar to a particular society; for example the Magdalene houses for wayward women in Ireland.

The 60's and 70's, was not so much a breakdown within the Church. But it was and is a breakdown in society in general and world wide in scope. Naturally it infected the laity in every religion. Add to that things peculiar to any given country for example, the draft dodgers in the US who sought out every means to escape the mandatory call to serve our country, and you had a natural recipe for disaster.

It is an old axiom, " A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." The lowering of educational standards is a world wide phenomena. What results is adults in general with many degrees who are trained like human computers, able to spout one unrelated fact after another with absolutely no ability to apply rational thought and critical thinking to create anything worth while from all those memorized facts.

Hence we see, supposedly educated people who believe and or weave all kinds of conspiracy theories. We see examples of that in these forums. For example, Pope Benedict did not resign because he felt he was getting to old and feeble physically and mentally to effectively lead the Church but it must be because some cabal within the Vatican has forced this. Whether that cabal is composed of homosexuals, liberals, Conservatives, Masons, Satanists, etc. doesn't matter. The only thing that does matter is that there must be a conspiracy because reality is too simple.

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Paul perhaps you weren't speaking specifically of the video and article I linked to in my first post, but in case you were, I didn't get from the Michael Vorhis video that he thought there was some kind of conspiracy going on but there is grave sin going on among some in the Church hierarchy and among some of her clergy that needs to be dealt with. While others may have the intent to attack and destroy the Church by bringing to light the abuse crisis, I don't think Michael Voris or Fr. Oko would fall into this category. I think both of them love the Church and want to see things cleaned up. Perhaps they are both doing what God has called them to do - making the stories known and seeking a solution. Sweeping things under the rug always backfires. I know God will right things in the way that is the best for all concerned.

Feb 25th 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: I just know what they pay the celibates. You could get a job at McDonald's for that. The Epis...
(Quote) John-220051 said:

I just know what they pay the celibates. You could get a job at McDonald's for that. The Episcopal priests who have become Catholic priests have been shocked at their canonical responsibilities. For whatever reason being a Catholic priest is more difficult than being a Protestant minister.
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I have no idea what we pay our priests, but I am sure it is not enough!

Feb 25th 2013 new

If I am repeating something someone else said, please forgive me. I don't have much time right now to read through the replies. I just caught that you said there were only two vocations within the Church - Marriage or Holy Orders. This is not true. The single celibate life is also a vocation. Here is more information.

www.catholicyouth.freeservers.com

www.vatican.va

Feb 25th 2013 new

(Quote) Rebecca-727981 said: If I am repeating something someone else said, please forgive me. I don't have much time ri...
(Quote) Rebecca-727981 said:

If I am repeating something someone else said, please forgive me. I don't have much time right now to read through the replies. I just caught that you said there were only two vocations within the Church - Marriage or Holy Orders. This is not true. The single celibate life is also a vocation. Here is more information.

www.catholicyouth.freeservers.com

www.vatican.va

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Hi Rebecca - No, we I wasn't saying that exactly. What was being said was that traditionally there has been a line of thought in Catholicism, which some still believe and follow, that there are two vocations on state of life to choose from - married life or religious life. If I am correct, it wasn't until Vatican II or slightly afterward that the single celibate life was proposed as another option.

Feb 25th 2013 new

(Quote) Jan-672216 said: + Don't know exactly where to turn with this information now except to prayer and to ask...
(Quote) Jan-672216 said:

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Don't know exactly where to turn with this information now except to prayer and to ask others to pray. We need to PRAY HARD for the cardinals to elect an orthodox Pope who will not be afraid to do the weeding that apparently badly needs to be done WITHIN the Church.

www.churchmilitant.tv

Here's a link to the article written by Fr. Dariusz Oko, Ph.D. that Michael Voris references in this video: www.churchmilitant.tv

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Just read this article which includes a press release from the Vatican Secretary of State, Fr. Lombardi. I don't know if Michale Voris or Fr. Oko would be included in his concerns, or even someone like myself for passing the reports along, but if I have erred in this or contributed to the problem rather than helping I am really sorry: www.catholicculture.org

Feb 25th 2013 new

www.podles.org

Feb 26th 2013 new

(Quote) Sean-851370 said: www.podles.org
(Quote) Sean-851370 said:

www.podles.org

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Yes - I read about this today. Followed a link in the article you referenced above - also very sobering: www.theamericanconservative.com

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