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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Mar 10th 2013 new
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: Check out: catholocity.net
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:



Check out:



catholocity.net



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Thank you! My bookmarked pages are going to be overflowing! Good problem to have

biggrin
Mar 10th 2013 new

(Quote) Brad-937504 said:
(Quote) Brad-937504 said:

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>So intimate kissing is a mortal sin according to Pope Alexander VII because it stirs the passions intended only for procreative purposes between a married man and woman.

Correct.

> I'd be interested in his thoughts on unmarried couples going to the beach in modern swimsuits. Can one doubt that he would have thoroughly condemned such immodesty?

Most likely. You may recall that the Blessed Mother condemned much modern dress at Fatima in 1917, when such was still very modest compared to that of today.

Before I follow you any further down this rat hole, I will point out that intimate kissing is a far more proximate occasion of grave sin than immodest dress, including skimpy swimwear, so even if there were some validity to your argument with regard to dress, it would not apply to intimate kissing.

> So we'd best consider that going to the beach is also likely a mortal sin because seeing the opposite sex in such skimpy attire is biologically likely to stir passions in ourselves or others or, at a minimum, encourage impure thoughts.

You have the right general idea. However, in many cases the difference in intention also comes into play.

I don't believe most people go to the beach, pool, etc. with the intention of being aroused by those dressed immodestly. For those who do, it is a grave sin right off the bat. For those who don't, the sin doesn't occur until the lustful thoughts begin and they do not remove themselves from the temptation.

On the other hand, the physical pleasure derived from intimate kissing is something most anticipate in advance of the act. In such cases, the sin is present even if the kiss turns out to be a dud.

> Perhaps, to avoid mortal sin, we should all consider wearing burkas.

Consider how the Blessed Mother is dressed in every apparition where here appearance has been recorded. This would be a morally safe standard of dress.

Man was created to know, love, and serve God in this world so we can share heaven with Him for eternity; not to do what pleases us now and to fit God in for an hour on Sunday and maybe 15-20 minutes a day during the week.

While God let us to (seemingly) get away with a great deal, there will a reckoning -- when it's too late to do anything about it. While God will forgive us any sin, first we must: (a) ask for forgiveness in Confession, which requires admitting the the sins are in fact sins; and (b) having both repentance and a firm purpose of amendment (being sorry and intending not to commit the sins again). Obstinately refusing to believe what the Church teaches on such matters and embracing instead on the standards of the secular world (despite admonitions against such in Scripture) is a sure-fire way to find yourself on the receiving end of the ultimate smack-down at your particular judgement. And wile you will have plenty of company, that (nor anything else) will be of any consolation.

Remember that free will is not free license. Eventually we will be called to account for each and every one of those choices.

Mar 10th 2013 new
(Quote) Brad-937504 said: So intimate kissing is a mortal sin according to Pope Alexander VII because it stirs the passions intended only for...
(Quote) Brad-937504 said: So intimate kissing is a mortal sin according to Pope Alexander VII because it stirs the passions intended only for procreative purposes between a married man and woman. I'd be interested in his thoughts on unmarried couples going to the beach in modern swimsuits. Can one doubt that he would have thoroughly condemned such immodesty? So we'd best consider that going to the beach is also likely a mortal sin because seeing the opposite sex in such skimpy attire is biologically likely to stir passions in ourselves or others or, at a minimum, encourage impure thoughts. Perhaps, to avoid mortal sin, we should all consider wearing burkas.
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Hi Brad,

I think it's safe to say that this Pope wouldn't have approved of today's swimsuits or even of mixed swimming. Here's a quote from Colleen Hammond's "Dressing With Dignity"...

"Before the mid-18th century, mixed swimming was condemned by Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Muslims as an occasion for vice. From the latter half of the 1800's, women who went bathing - usually outdoors - wore an elaborate bathing outfit which included sleeves, a skirt, and loose pantaloons to below the knee. The fabric used was basically the same heavy fabric used in other clothing - so today we would hardly even consider such an outfit a "real" bathing suit."

I know of many Catholic families today who don't allow their kids to swim with members of the opposite sex. I can't blame them when most of what you see people wearing at beaches and pools looks like underwear.
Mar 10th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: (Quote) Brad-937504 said: >So intimate kissing is a mort...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

Quote:
Brad-937504 said:


>So intimate kissing is a mortal sin according to Pope Alexander VII because it stirs the passions intended only for procreative purposes between a married man and woman.

Correct.

> I'd be interested in his thoughts on unmarried couples going to the beach in modern swimsuits. Can one doubt that he would have thoroughly condemned such immodesty?

Most likely. You may recall that the Blessed Mother condemned much modern dress at Fatima in 1917, when such was still very modest compared to that of today.

Before I follow you any further down this rat hole, I will point out that intimate kissing is a far more proximate occasion of grave sin than immodest dress, including skimpy swimwear, so even if there were some validity to your argument with regard to dress, it would not apply to intimate kissing.

> So we'd best consider that going to the beach is also likely a mortal sin because seeing the opposite sex in such skimpy attire is biologically likely to stir passions in ourselves or others or, at a minimum, encourage impure thoughts.

You have the right general idea. However, in many cases the difference in intention also comes into play.

I don't believe most people go to the beach, pool, etc. with the intention of being aroused by those dressed immodestly. For those who do, it is a grave sin right off the bat. For those who don't, the sin doesn't occur until the lustful thoughts begin and they do not remove themselves from the temptation.

On the other hand, the physical pleasure derived from intimate kissing is something most anticipate in advance of the act. In such cases, the sin is present even if the kiss turns out to be a dud.

> Perhaps, to avoid mortal sin, we should all consider wearing burkas.

Consider how the Blessed Mother is dressed in every apparition where here appearance has been recorded. This would be a morally safe standard of dress.

Man was created to know, love, and serve God in this world so we can share heaven with Him for eternity; not to do what pleases us now and to fit God in for an hour on Sunday and maybe 15-20 minutes a day during the week.

While God let us to (seemingly) get away with a great deal, there will a reckoning -- when it's too late to do anything about it. While God will forgive us any sin, first we must: (a) ask for forgiveness in Confession, which requires admitting the the sins are in fact sins; and (b) having both repentance and a firm purpose of amendment (being sorry and intending not to commit the sins again). Obstinately refusing to believe what the Church teaches on such matters and embracing instead on the standards of the secular world (despite admonitions against such in Scripture) is a sure-fire way to find yourself on the receiving end of the ultimate smack-down at your particular judgement. And wile you will have plenty of company, that (nor anything else) will be of any consolation.

Remember that free will is not free license. Eventually we will be called to account for each and every one of those choices.

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Our Lady's words at Fatima 1917, "Certain styles and fashions are being introduced which gravely offend My Divine Son,"

Mar 10th 2013 new

(Quote) Brad-937504 said:
(Quote) Brad-937504 said:
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> I just returned from Mass, where I said an act of contrition for any grievously sinful kissing I may have engaged in during my lifetime.

Just a reminder to all that mortal sins must be confessed to a priest; an act of contrition does not suffice.

> I'm trying to point out that we engage in many activities now that would have been considered a serious sin in the mid-1600s.

The natural law, from which the sins against purity arise, is the same now as it always has been and always will be. Thus, the sins that arise from violating the natural law have always been and always will be sins, regardless of prevaling social standards. Just as the fact that society accepts abortion and homosexual relations today does not make these acts morally licit, the acceptance of intimate kissing, dressing immodestly, etc. does not make these acts morally licit.

> I have no doubt that intimate kissing can be a mortal sin, depending on the intentions of the parties involved, but I do not accept the broad pronouncement that it is always a mortal sin.

As I noted in a previous response, intention is only one factor. Even if there is no intention to sin, once the passionate feelings occur one is required to immediately remove themself from the source (i.e., stop the kissing). If they fail to do so, at that point there is intention -- and grave sin.

> Essentially, I'm comfortable letting God be the judge.

Do you understand the implication of this. Even a single mortal sin on our souls results in an immediate loss of God's grace, which renders un ineligible to receive any sacrament except Penance. Each additional mortal sin leaves us increasingly vulnerable to attack from the diabolical forces which seek to claim our eternal soul. Even one unrepented mortal sin at death results in a loss of eternal salvation (i.e., a one-way ticket to the infernal region).

I find it very helpful to keep the conclusion of Pope Clement XI's in mind when tempted:

Assist me, that I may continually labor to overcome nature, to correspond with Thy grace, to keep Thy commandments, and to work out my salvation.

Make me realize, O my God! the nothingness of this world, the greatness of heaven the shortness of time, and the length of eternity.

Grant that I may prepare for death; that I may fear thy judgments, and in the end obtain heaven; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

catholocity.net

Mar 10th 2013 new

(Quote) Mari-894290 said:
(Quote) Mari-894290 said:

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> Lat night, I heard the audio that posted. All I could think of on the kissing part was: One thing is to feel and another to follow up. I have many emotions and thoughts that come to me from outside and inside that I cannot control. Nevertheless, I have the power to let them take over me.

While you are correct that feeling and following up are different, the difference is irrelevant to the end result: while they are two different sins, both are grave.

> I don't think I can have a relationship that I hope leads to mariage without kissing.

The rule isn't no kissing; it is no intimate kissing. It may not be easy, but it can be done. And the sacrifice made will result in many graces. Something to reflect on (for those who are unfamiliar with the passage you alluded to further on in your post):

Then the angel Raphael said to him: Hear me, and I will shew thee who they are, over whom the devil can prevail. For they who in such manner receive matrimony, as to shut out God from themselves, and from their mind, and to give themselves to their lust, as the horse and mule, which have not understanding, over them the devil hath power. But thou when thou shalt take her, go into the chamber, and for three days keep thyself continent from her, and give thyself to nothing else but to prayers with her. And on that night lay the liver of the fish on the fire, and the devil shall be driven away. But the second night thou shalt be admitted into the society of the holy Patriarchs.

And the third night thou shalt obtain a blessing that sound children may be born of you. And when the third night is past, thou shalt take the virgin with the fear of the Lord, moved rather for love of children than for lust, that in the seed of Abraham thou mayst obtain a blessing in children. (Tobias 6:16-22)

Note that I am not suggesting that one wait three days to consummate their marriage (though clearly there is great benefit to doing so with the proper disposition): the point is that having patience and offering the sacrifice to God is to our spiritual benefit.

> On the Sacramental Marriage, I'd like to share with you how I see it. I'm a story teller, so please be patient. I'll get there!

> I met a cousin in the produce dept at the local grocery store. We ended up talking about our young sdult kids & sex. This is what I told her. Rememebr the meteor that fell in Russia the other day? Well, Making Love with your spouse is like that: It's a blast from Heaven. The Power of Crreation that God entrusts us with is SOOOO mighty, that it not only engulfs the couple: it goes out like a wave of PURE LOVE into the rest of the world. That LOVE is PURE because it is God itself. I kept on... and just planted another seed on her wonderful brain: Why do you think we make love facing each other?

Think of how much more intense the first explosion will be on your wedding night when you haven't been nipping away at it along the way...

Mar 10th 2013 new

(Quote) Mari-894290 said:   Good morning, Bernard: Lat night, I heard the audio that posted. All...
(Quote) Mari-894290 said:

 


Good morning, Bernard:

Lat night, I heard the audio that posted. All I couldthink of on the kissing part was: One thing is to feel and another to follow up. I have many emotions and thoughts that come to me from outside and inside that I cannot control. Nevertheless, I have the power to let them take over me.


I don't think I can have a relationship that I hope leads to mariage without kissing. The priest is pretty straight forward: 1, 2, 3... I try to be a better Chrisitan everyda, which in turns makes me a better person for those around me. I will keep this post in my head (safer than in my heart) in the future. After all, like someone wrote: I HAVE BEEN FORWARNED!


On the Sacramental Marriage, I'd like to share with you how I see it. I'm a story teller, so please be patient. I'll get there!

I met a cousin in the produce dept at the local grocery store. We ended up talking about our young sdult kids & sex. This is what I told her. Rememebr the meteor that fell in Russia the other day? Well, Making Love with your spouse is like that: It's a blast from Heaven. The Power of Crreation that God entrusts us with is SOOOO mighty, that it not only engulfs the couple: it goes out like a wave of PURE LOVE into the rest of the world. That LOVE is PURE because it is God itself. I kept on... and just planted another seed on her wonderful brain: Why do you think we make love facing each other?


She was so astounded! All she said was: Why noone ever explained it like that to us? We come from Catholic families, went to the same Catholic school, Catholic college, worked in a Catholic (lay) school, and she is one of the Principals at my kids' school - Catholic also.

WE, the Church, have failed to explain the magnificence of the Conjugal Act.

On the part about facing each other while Making Love (not Having, but Making), I could not go further with her... Baby steps... He'll give me time to tell her more one of these days. If God intended us to face each other, what would that mean? Only that our senses are tuned to one another when facing? NOP. It is about DONATION. How do we give to others? We extend our hands. We turn around in Mass to offer Peace; we "give / lend a hand" when some one has fallen...

Jesus extended his arms in the Cross for us as the Most Sublime Sacrifice. He was not crucifed with His back to us. We have Him present in the Eucharist, consecrated at the ALTAR. At home, as mirrors of the Holy Family, we come together during meals: we pray to God in thanksgiving for GIVING us the food to nurish our bodies... moreover, we pas the food around the table or serve one another with our hands, again, facing one another in the ALTAR of the Dinner Table. When the spouses come together in the bed, and DONATE their lives to each other fully and surrender to the Almighty so that He may share that Power of Creation, we renew our vows. The simple bed becomes an ALTAR!

I did not understand fully when I was taught that no kids / no pets / nothing else should be carried on or brought to the Nuptial Bed. I was blessed to be taught to pray like Tobias and Sarah did before consumating their marriage. I urge you all to read that beautiful story about trust in the Lord, and what the Altar Bed is about.

With all this said, I'm waiting with bated breath for a spouse who will lead me to all three Altars, and blast off the world with LOVE!!! And that, Sir, is my take on The Big Bang Theory!

Mari

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Mari, that was absolutely beautiful. Best explanation I have heard. I agree with your Theory!


Jim

Mar 10th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: Review of Sins Against the 6th and 9th Commandments .Aprox 20 minutes.Great Sermon.p://www.audiosancto.o...
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: Review of Sins Against the 6th and 9th Commandments .Aprox 20 minutes.Great Sermon.p://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20060730-Review-of-Sins-Against-the-6th-and-9th-Commandments.html

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Bernard,

Thank you, and bless you, for this wonderful link!

Mar 10th 2013 new

(Quote) Marissa-529206 said: Ahhh...and back to the issue.
(Quote) Marissa-529206 said: Ahhh...and back to the issue.

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Marissa..... biggrin biggrin

Mar 10th 2013 new

(Quote) Jim-13836 said: Mari, that was absolutely beautiful. Best explanation I have heard. I agree with your Theor...
(Quote) Jim-13836 said:

Mari, that was absolutely beautiful. Best explanation I have heard. I agree with your Theory!


Jim

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Thanks for the feedback, Jim.

I'm a teacher by trade. I guess that, as I did with my students, I need to explain things in images and sounds. I'm a story teller!

Mari

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