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03/12/2013 new
A romantic relationship without kissing? Too much the cold fish for me.
03/12/2013 new

(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said: A romantic relationship without kissing? Too much the cold fish for me.
(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said: A romantic relationship without kissing? Too much the cold fish for me.
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While that may be, the problem is the expectations modern society has instilled in us. Notice how every single person attempting to discredit the no intimate kissing principle focuses on what they feel or what they want (and very often misrepresents the other side's arguments). I have yet to see one address the theological and philosophical principles.

03/12/2013 new

(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said: (Quote) Jerry-74383 said: (Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said:
(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said:
Quote:
Jerry-74383 said:
Quote:
Jacqueline-556574 said:

Kissing is a mortal sin?

I am inclined to think that NOT kissing is a sin in Catholic dating.

Affection is needed, it just needs to be controlled before marriage

If I dated someone at length and he did not think that kissing should be a part of the program, I think I would not trust that.

Very strange thinking.


What Church teaching supports this assertion?




None. But, if one is attempting to build a relationship, romantic or otherwise, our actions should include some forms of affection. Too much caution, and there is a loss of our intent, as to what the focus of the relationship involves.

A basic human need is the need for human touch. A mutually wanted kiss is a small token of mutual affection. No faith lost in it, but the lack thereof would indicate a lack of interest thereof.

--hide--

Let's summarize:

You've been presented with Church teachings, including a very clear declaration from a pope, that intimate kissing before marriage is a mortal sin.

You then not only question said teaching, but you assert that not kissing while dating is a sin.

When asked for a Church teaching to support this assertion, you admit you have none and proceed to create a straw man and attack that rather than the actual arguments you questioned. Specifically, how many times has it been clearly stated in this topic there is no objection to non-intimate physical contact or kissing?

You are right about one thing: there is some very strange thinking...

03/12/2013 new
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: Let's summarize: You've been presented with Church teachings, including a...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:



Let's summarize:



You've been presented with Church teachings, including a very clear declaration from a pope, that intimate kissing before marriage is a mortal sin.



You then not only question said teaching, but you assert that not kissing while dating is a sin.



When asked for a Church teaching to support this assertion, you admit you have none and proceed to create a straw man and attack that rather than the actual arguments you questioned. Specifically, how many times has it been clearly stated in this topic there is no objection to non-intimate physical contact or kissing?



You are right about one thing: there is some very strange thinking...



--hide--


Probably you are correct, Jerry. I didn't even open the audio, and I don't care to. Certainly I did not look to the logistics of the issue, and depended upon the intuitive.

Then perhaps I would have to change my 7/7 to a 6/7, as I would not necessarily follow every single statement issued by a pope, although I would follow most, or generally known Catholic thought.

Kissing or intimate kissing, that does not lead to adultery, is perhaps one of the only signs of affection and love we single Catholics have to rely upon between each other. Certainly remaining single is an unnatural enough state without further harsh restraints. Sin or not sin would depend upon the intent.
03/12/2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: Let's summarize: You've been presented with Church teachings, including a ...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

Let's summarize:

You've been presented with Church teachings, including a very clear declaration from a pope, that intimate kissing before marriage is a mortal sin.

You then not only question said teaching, but you assert that not kissing while dating is a sin.

When asked for a Church teaching to support this assertion, you admit you have none and proceed to create a straw man and attack that rather than the actual arguments you questioned. Specifically, how many times has it been clearly stated in this topic there is no objection to non-intimate physical contact or kissing?

You are right about one thing: there is some very strange thinking...

--hide--
My problem with your analysis is that you're suggesting this is a black and white doctrinal teaching of the Church. It's just not that simple. For example, you concede that "non-intimate" kissing is unobjectionable. At what point does a kiss become "intimate." Is a kiss beyond a mere peck always intimate and, therefore a mortal sin? Is one lingering kiss per se a mortal sin? At what point do a series of non-intimate kisses add up to an intimate encounter and, therefore, a mortal sin? What about a man who proposes to a woman he deeply loves; the woman, who deeply loves the man, says yes; and in the joy of the moment they share a heartfelt kiss? Can yo say with certainty that they have committed a mortal sin?

03/12/2013 new

(Quote) Brad-937504 said: My problem with your analysis is that you're suggesting this is a black and white doctrinal te...
(Quote) Brad-937504 said:

My problem with your analysis is that you're suggesting this is a black and white doctrinal teaching of the Church. It's just not that simple. For example, you concede that "non-intimate" kissing is unobjectionable. At what point does a kiss become "intimate." Is a kiss beyond a mere peck always intimate and, therefore a mortal sin? Is one lingering kiss per se a mortal sin? At what point do a series of non-intimate kisses add up to an intimate encounter and, therefore, a mortal sin? What about a man who proposes to a woman he deeply loves; the woman, who deeply loves the man, says yes; and in the joy of the moment they share a heartfelt kiss? Can yo say with certainty that they have committed a mortal sin?

--hide--


A mortal sin requires three elements:

1) grave matter
2) sufficient reflection
3) full consent of the will


If these elements are met, then we can say with certainty that someone has committed a mortal sin. (And no, you can rest assured that NONE of us here will ever take it upon him or herself to decide whether these conditions have been met for anyone but for him or herself.)



03/12/2013 new

(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said: A romantic relationship without kissing? Too much the cold fish for me.
(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said: A romantic relationship without kissing? Too much the cold fish for me.
--hide--


Jacqueline,


We're here as Catholics trying to help one another to get through this world. Nobody here thought this idea up and put it out there in the thread; I'm sure it's hard for everyone.

How do you reconcile your opinion with the Church's teaching on the subject?


03/12/2013 new

Actually, I was reading Chapter 3 of Heaven's Song by Christopher West. The whole book is about the Song of Songs. In Chapter 3 West talks about the restraint and purity called for, in viewing your potential spouse as a sister or brother, therefore someone to be supported and protected, not used. What a beautiful way of looking at someone, to just care for them, see them as they are, rather than what they can do for me.


Which led me to think that maybe a relationship founded on respect, avoiding French kissing and sexual arousal until its the proper time (after marriage) might be pretty wonderful.


Certainly it would be counter-cultural, but as practicing Catholics aren't we in the minority anyway?

03/13/2013 new

(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said: A romantic relationship without kissing? Too much the cold fish for me.
(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said: A romantic relationship without kissing? Too much the cold fish for me.
--hide--


Amen!

03/13/2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: Let's summarize: You've been presented with Church teachings, including a ...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

Let's summarize:

You've been presented with Church teachings, including a very clear declaration from a pope, that intimate kissing before marriage is a mortal sin.

You then not only question said teaching, but you assert that not kissing while dating is a sin.

When asked for a Church teaching to support this assertion, you admit you have none and proceed to create a straw man and attack that rather than the actual arguments you questioned. Specifically, how many times has it been clearly stated in this topic there is no objection to non-intimate physical contact or kissing?

You are right about one thing: there is some very strange thinking...

--hide--


Pucker up Buttercup. A little smooching might sweeten that sour disposition. wink

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