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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

Mar 8th 2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: (Quote) Jerry-74383 said: You're welcome, Jim. I we...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:
Quote:
Jerry-74383 said:



You're welcome, Jim. I went to a Catholic school for 7 years and probably learned more about folk music and making felt banners than I did about the Faith. Being approximately the same age, I wouldn't be surprised if your experience was similar. Sadly, you will find there is much we were not taught. It's not a mater of being stupid -- we weren't responsible for making the lesson plans.



A good place to start learning is the Baltimore Catechism. It is in a Q&A format and may seem rather simple at first, but you'll be surprised at how much of the really basic stuff we were never taught.



You can find the Baltimore Catechism, as well as the catechisms of Trent, Aquinas, Pius X, and the CCC at the following site:



www.cin.org



If you prefer reading books, there are reprints of all of these available. If you consider ordering a printed copy of the Baltimore Catechism, let me know first so I can explain the book numbering system.






What a cool link! Thanks for posting this, it's great to have all of these in one place.
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Another good link.Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary, 1859 edition.

A Catholic Bible commentary compiled by the late Rev. Fr. George Leo Haydock, following the Douay-Rheims Bible.*

haydock1859.tripod.com

Mar 9th 2013 new


Thanks so much! I had no idea you could find all of these things online. Wish I would have joined in on the forums sooner. Have a great Saturday!

Mar 9th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: With regard to the topic of this discussion thread (intimate kissing), the priest was pro...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

With regard to the topic of this discussion thread (intimate kissing), the priest was providing more than his personal interpretation: he cited a declaration by Pope Alexander VII and Saint Alphonsus Liguori, a doctor of the Church:

(quoting tape)

Pope Alexander VII condemned the idea that it is only a venial sin for the unmarried to kiss for the sensual pleasure arising from the kiss, even if there is no danger of further consent or going any farther. [...] Saint Alphonsus (the doctor of moral theology of the universal Church) explains, "the reason is that any delight taken in stirring up appetites that surround the creative power is a movement toward the marital act."

(9:43) All pleasure outside of marriage that is associated with the creative power that is directly willed or desired, intentionally procured or permitted, is a mortal sin for the unmarried.

(end quote)

Pope Alexander VI condemned the following in his decree of 18 March 1666:

"It is a probable opinion which states that a kiss is only venial when performed for the sake of the carnal or sensible delight which arises from the kiss, if danger of further consent or pollution is excluded."

(Emphasis mine, to answer the typical rejoinder regarding self-control. In moral theology, 'pollution' refers to an ejaculation outside the conjugal act.)

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There have been various threads on this, and many of them have not been very civil, polite, or respectful so I hesitate to post. Yet, given the severity of the mortal sin, and the fact that we are all single Catholics, most of whom are seeking the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony, I think the issue deserves thoughtful consideration.

I personally am genuinely trying to understand this to grow in the Catholic faith, and I am neither an intellectual lightweight, nor a reformist liberal nor a pagan. But how is probable opinion an unequivocal pronouncement of something as a mortal sin? Moreover, this probable opinion statement is from a Pope who lived in the seventeenth century when arranged marriages were the norm. It most definitely would be socially and morally unacceptable to be kissing someone that your family had not picked out for you and told you to marry. You got married when you were told to do so and then you were allowed kissing and all the rest after your vows.

Given that in the times that we are living, arranged marriages are not the norm, there is an expectation of a period of courtship, an expectation of chastity prior to the exchange of vows and willful consent to be married amongst faithful Catholics, are we applying the correct standard here? Do all expressions of affection that are common in a courtship period between a man and a woman (hugs, holding hands, exchanging gifts, dare we go there - a kiss on the lips) necessarily lead to the marital act prior to the exchange of vows, and therefore constitute the commission of mortal sin?

The expressions of affection between a man and woman during a chaste courtship are fundamentally different from the expressions of affection with our other relatives. We don't hold hands with our grandmas, grandpas and aunts and uncles, and we don't marry them either. In fact, we are prohibited from marrying those relations because the marriage relationship is fundamentally different from all other relationships.

I expect that some will disagree with my ramblings on this subject, which is fine, but please, no one here has the right to tell me I'm not Catholic or that I deserve to be excommunicated. That kind of over-the-top nonsense that used to infect the forums made the average Catholic junior high school debating club look more mature, and more Catholic.



Mar 9th 2013 new
(Quote) Angela-374523 said: There have been various threads on this, and many of them have not been very civil, polite, or respect...
(Quote) Angela-374523 said:



There have been various threads on this, and many of them have not been very civil, polite, or respectful so I hesitate to post. Yet, given the severity of the mortal sin, and the fact that we are all single Catholics, most of whom are seeking the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony, I think the issue deserves thoughtful consideration.

I personally am genuinely trying to understand this to grow in the Catholic faith, and I am neither an intellectual lightweight, nor a reformist liberal nor a pagan. But how is probable opinion an unequivocal pronouncement of something as a mortal sin? Moreover, this probable opinion statement is from a Pope who lived in the seventeenth century when arranged marriages were the norm. It most definitely would be socially and morally unacceptable to be kissing someone that your family had not picked out for you and told you to marry. You got married when you were told to do so and then you were allowed kissing and all the rest after your vows.

Given that in the times that we are living, arranged marriages are not the norm, there is an expectation of a period of courtship, an expectation of chastity prior to the exchange of vows and willful consent to be married amongst faithful Catholics, are we applying the correct standard here? Do all expressions of affection that are common in a courtship period between a man and a woman (hugs, holding hands, exchanging gifts, dare we go there - a kiss on the lips) necessarily lead to the marital act prior to the exchange of vows, and therefore constitute the commission of mortal sin?

The expressions of affection between a man and woman during a chaste courtship are fundamentally different from the expressions of affection with our other relatives. We don't hold hands with our grandmas, grandpas and aunts and uncles, and we don't marry them either. In fact, we are prohibited from marrying those relations because the marriage relationship is fundamentally different from all other relationships.

I expect that some will disagree with my ramblings on this subject, which is fine, but please, no one here has the right to tell me I'm not Catholic or that I deserve to be excommunicated. That kind of over-the-top nonsense that used to infect the forums made the average Catholic junior high school debating club look more mature, and more Catholic.



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Hello Angela,

I liked reading through your post, you're obviously intelligent and thoughtful. I've only been posting on the forums for the past week and haven't read too many conversations older than that so I can't speak to any other threads on this topic or their lack of civility and politeness. I agree that it isn't very Catholic to speak to one another in disrespectful and inconsiderate ways. I can also see though that when people are very passionate about their beliefs then things get heated and that, though misguided is at least well meaning. I hope so anyway...I haven't had the sense that anyone posting on here is getting upset for any other reason than that they feel very strongly and wish to have their opinions respected. Of course we can and should try to improve upon our communication skills and the way we relate to one another and I'm not trying to excuse bad behavior. But we are all fallen and living in confusing times where morality isn't being taught the way it used to be so I think we have to give each other some room to be human, as long as we are being sincere and don't become blatantly insulting and disrespectful.

As far as I know (unless this occurred on a different thread you are referring to) no one has accused anyone of not being Catholic or suggested than anyone should be excommunicated for their beliefs. I think using language like this just serves to stir up people's emotions even further and it serves no useful purpose, kind of like the comment that this priest was saying that unmarried couples couldn't hold hands, which he never said or alluded to.

Just to reiterate what some others have already posted, the priest isn't saying that passionate kissing is a mortal sin because it could lead to something else. He is saying that the kiss, just the kiss in and of itself is the sin. It is a sin because that kind of physical expression of affection is reserved to the married. Our society has accepted that passionate kissing is just a normal part of dating but that doesn't make it right. There are plenty of ways for couples to show affection to one another. And of course this relationship is different from other relationships in our lives and it's special and extra care should be taken to preserve it's purity. We don't desire to hold hands with our grandparents in that way...we desire to do so with someone who could potentially be a future spouse because we are physically attracted to them and want to be physically close to them.

Even if kissing doesn't lead to more it is still stirring up passions and we aren't supposed to allow ourselves to intentionally do this before marriage and for good reason. Many of us (myself included) have been given the impression that all kinds of things that are sins really aren't. It's only been in recent modern times that we've adopted this notion that kissing passionately is not a big deal. It helps me to remember that for me personally, kissing is a very big deal and it means a lot to me and that adds to my being able to view it as grave matter.
Mar 10th 2013 new

(Quote) Angela-374523 said: (Author's statements preceded by ">")
(Quote) Angela-374523 said:

(Author's statements preceded by ">")

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> But how is probable opinion an unequivocal pronouncement of something as a mortal sin?

The "probable opinion" statement was from a syllabus of errors: that is, Pope Alexander was decreeing that the following statement is a moral error:

It is a probable opinion which states that a kiss is only venial when performed for the sake of the carnal or sensible delight which arises from the kiss, if danger of further consent or pollution is excluded.

Not all theologians agree with every doctrine of the Church; nonetheless, we are obligated to accept them because the Church has declared them to be doctrine ("He that heareth you, heareth Me" (Luke 10:16)).

> Moreover, this probable opinion statement is from a Pope who lived in the seventeenth century when arranged marriages were the norm. It most definitely would be socially and morally unacceptable to be kissing someone that your family had not picked out for you and told you to marry. You got married when you were told to do so and then you were allowed kissing and all the rest after your vows.

Sins against purity, are violations of the natural law, which does not change over time and is not subject to the whims of human social conventions.

> Do all expressions of affection that are common in a courtship period between a man and a woman (hugs, holding hands, exchanging gifts, dare we go there - a kiss on the lips) necessarily lead to the marital act prior to the exchange of vows, and therefore constitute the commission of mortal sin?

This discussion is about intimate kissing, not hugs (although some hugs could be problematic), holding hands, exchanging gifts, or even limited kisses on the lips.

Whether the act in question ultimately leads to the conjugal act is irrelevant. Note the final clause of the condemned statement: "if danger of further consent or pollution is excluded." The problem is the sexual feelings either anticipated in initiating the act or consented to by continuing the act once the feelings were noticed.

> The expressions of affection between a man and woman during a chaste courtship are fundamentally different from the expressions of affection with our other relatives.

If they are, then I argue that the courtship isn't chaste.

> We don't hold hands with our grandmas, grandpas and aunts and uncles,

I think there are many who would differ with this statement. Granted, we do so for different reasons. But, again, hand holding is not the subject of this discussion.

> and we don't marry them either.

Either you are married to the person at the time that act takes place or you aren't. Whether you intent to marry them has no effect on the moral character of the act.

> I expect that some will disagree with my ramblings on this subject, which is fine, but please, no one here has the right to tell me I'm not Catholic or that I deserve to be excommunicated.

Please quote where anyone suggested that engaging in intimate kissing makes a person "not Catholic" or subject to excommunication?

> That kind of over-the-top nonsense that used to infect the forums made the average Catholic junior high school debating club look more mature, and more Catholic.

The only "over the top nonsense" I have seen in this discussion has been introduced by those who, unable to debate the doctrinal issues on their merits, have introduced strawman arguments in an effort to discredit them. I do concur with your assessment of the impact of said nonsense on the discussion.



Mar 10th 2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: Thanks so much! I had no idea you could find all of these things online. Wish I would have j...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:


Thanks so much! I had no idea you could find all of these things online. Wish I would have joined in on the forums sooner. Have a great Saturday!

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Check out:

catholocity.net

Mar 10th 2013 new
So intimate kissing is a mortal sin according to Pope Alexander VII because it stirs the passions intended only for procreative purposes between a married man and woman. I'd be interested in his thoughts on unmarried couples going to the beach in modern swimsuits. Can one doubt that he would have thoroughly condemned such immodesty? So we'd best consider that going to the beach is also likely a mortal sin because seeing the opposite sex in such skimpy attire is biologically likely to stir passions in ourselves or others or, at a minimum, encourage impure thoughts. Perhaps, to avoid mortal sin, we should all consider wearing burkas.
Mar 10th 2013 new

(Quote) Brad-937504 said: So intimate kissing is a mortal sin according to Pope Alexander VII because it stirs the passions intende...
(Quote) Brad-937504 said: So intimate kissing is a mortal sin according to Pope Alexander VII because it stirs the passions intended only for procreative purposes between a married man and woman. I'd be interested in his thoughts on unmarried couples going to the beach in modern swimsuits. Can one doubt that he would have thoroughly condemned such immodesty? So we'd best consider that going to the beach is also likely a mortal sin because seeing the opposite sex in such skimpy attire is biologically likely to stir passions in ourselves or others or, at a minimum, encourage impure thoughts. Perhaps, to avoid mortal sin, we should all consider wearing burkas.
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Brad -- why must you jump from one extreme to another?? There is a world of variation in dress between a thong swim suit and a burka. I swim daily in the summer and wear a modest swim suit while doing my mile and a swim dress when I'm just playing with the kids or enjoying the sun. When I leave the pool, I pull on a cover-up dress. For those arroused even by what I wear, perhaps they should not go to the pool or beach, but mostly they need to take custody of their eyes and thoughts and learn to not look and lust. But I very much agree much of the modern swimwear is indecent and a higher standard should be kept.

Mar 10th 2013 new
(Quote) Rachel-731570 said: Brad -- why must you jump from one extreme to another?? There is a world of variation in dress be...
(Quote) Rachel-731570 said:


Brad -- why must you jump from one extreme to another?? There is a world of variation in dress between a thong swim suit and a burka....For those arroused even by what I wear, perhaps they should not go to the pool or beach, but mostly they need to take custody of their eyes and thoughts and learn to not look and lust. But I very much agree much of the modern swimwear is indecent and a higher standard should be kept.

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Hi, Rachel. I just returned from Mass, where I said an act of contrition for any grievously sinful kissing I may have engaged in during my lifetime. I'm not trying to jump from one extreme to another. Rather, I'm trying to point out that we engage in many activities now that would have been considered a serious sin in the mid-1600s. I have no doubt that intimate kissing can be a mortal sin, depending on the intentions of the parties involved, but I do not accept the broad pronouncement that it is always a mortal sin. Essentially, I'm comfortable letting God be the judge.
Mar 10th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: Review of Sins Against the 6th and 9th Commandments .Aprox 20 minutes.Great Sermon. http...
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

Review of Sins Against the 6th and 9th Commandments .Aprox 20 minutes.Great Sermon.

www.audiosancto.org

 

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Good morning, Bernard:

Lat night, I heard the audio that posted. All I couldthink of on the kissing part was: One thing is to feel and another to follow up. I have many emotions and thoughts that come to me from outside and inside that I cannot control. Nevertheless, I have the power to let them take over me.


I don't think I can have a relationship that I hope leads to mariage without kissing. The priest is pretty straight forward: 1, 2, 3... I try to be a better Chrisitan everyda, which in turns makes me a better person for those around me. I will keep this post in my head (safer than in my heart) in the future. After all, like someone wrote: I HAVE BEEN FORWARNED!


On the Sacramental Marriage, I'd like to share with you how I see it. I'm a story teller, so please be patient. I'll get there! wink

I met a cousin in the produce dept at the local grocery store. We ended up talking about our young sdult kids & sex. This is what I told her. Rememebr the meteor that fell in Russia the other day? Well, Making Love with your spouse is like that: It's a blast from Heaven. The Power of Crreation that God entrusts us with is SOOOO mighty, that it not only engulfs the couple: it goes out like a wave of PURE LOVE into the rest of the world. That LOVE is PURE because it is God itself. I kept on... and just planted another seed on her wonderful brain: Why do you think we make love facing each other?


She was so astounded! All she said was: Why noone ever explained it like that to us? We come from Catholic families, went to the same Catholic school, Catholic college, worked in a Catholic (lay) school, and she is one of the Principals at my kids' school - Catholic also.

WE, the Church, have failed to explain the magnificence of the Conjugal Act.

On the part about facing each other while Making Love (not Having, but Making), I could not go further with her... Baby steps... He'll give me time to tell her more one of these days. If God intended us to face each other, what would that mean? Only that our senses are tuned to one another when facing? NOP. It is about DONATION. How do we give to others? We extend our hands. We turn around in Mass to offer Peace; we "give / lend a hand" when some one has fallen...

Jesus extended his arms in the Cross for us as the Most Sublime Sacrifice. He was not crucifed with His back to us. We have Him present in the Eucharist, consecrated at the ALTAR. At home, as mirrors of the Holy Family, we come together during meals: we pray to God in thanksgiving for GIVING us the food to nurish our bodies... moreover, we pas the food around the table or serve one another with our hands, again, facing one another in the ALTAR of the Dinner Table. When the spouses come together in the bed, and DONATE their lives to each other fully and surrender to the Almighty so that He may share that Power of Creation, we renew our vows. The simple bed becomes an ALTAR!

I did not understand fully when I was taught that no kids / no pets / nothing else should be carried on or brought to the Nuptial Bed. I was blessed to be taught to pray like Tobias and Sarah did before consumating their marriage. I urge you all to read that beautiful story about trust in the Lord, and what the Altar Bed is about.

With all this said, I'm waiting with bated breath for a spouse who will lead me to all three Altars, and blast off the world with LOVE!!! And that, Sir, is my take on The Big Bang Theory! cool

hug


Mari

 

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