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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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Mar 25th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: You can find a latin Mass in your area here Jim.fssp.com
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

You can find a latin Mass in your area here Jim.fssp.com

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Thank you Bernard, but I am already attending a Latin Mass, though unfortunately I have to drive an hour to get there. I will still check the site. Thanks

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Mar 25th 2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: Actually, it is an abuse for the priest to face the people for the entire Mass, he is only to d...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

Actually, it is an abuse for the priest to face the people for the entire Mass, he is only to do so during these specific times:

1)When giving the opening greeting (GIRM 124).

2)When giving the invitation to pray at the end of the offertory, Pray brethren (GIRM 146).

3)When giving the greeting of peace (GIRM 154).

4) When displaying the Host and Chalice before Communion and saying: Behold the Lamb of God (GIRM 157).

5) When inviting the people to pray before the post communion prayer (GIRM 165).

6)When giving the final blessing (Ordo Missae 141).

I stand corrected about altar girls. It was condemned at one point but I see now that they are allowed. What I've read though is that a great number of Bishops and Priests don't find this favorable as fewer priestly vocations come from altar boys if they start to perceive serving as a girl's job.

I completely understand the points you are making about dress. I personally think we should wear our "Sunday best" but that is just a preference. But even if we were to wear everyday attire to Mass, it shouldn't be immodest, offensive or give scandal to anyone. Mary told the children at Fatima that some fashions would offend Our Lord very much.

I also understand what John was saying but what he posted didn't appear to be specifically speaking of the Mass. Chant was never supposed to be done away with at the new Mass.
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I beg to differ. You are misreading the instructions. In the NO the Priest is allowed to face the people for the entire Mass. Popes John Paul II, Benedict XVI and now Francis all celebrate the NO mass facing the people. I have never witnessed an NO mass where the Priest did not face the people.

Specifically the instruction reads,"The Altar should be built apart from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that MASS CAN BE CELBRATED FACING THE PEOPLE, which is desirable whenever possible." Emphasis added.

The six instances you cite are instances applicable in both the NO and the TLM when the priest MUST must face the people.

Nothing in the instructions requires that either form of the Mass be celebrated with the Priest facing liturgical East.

In St. Peter's whenever Mass is celebrated at the main altar (the Pope's Mass) it was always said with the Pope facing the people. That has been true since St. Peter's has been standing for the simple reason that it is the way the altar was designed and built.

Chant, at the TLM in the days before VII was only heard at High Mass, seldom at daily masses. Rarely did the congregation join in the chanting for the simple reason that they did not know how. And of course, today, even most choirs are incapable of properly chanting. And what passes as chanting is, on average, atrocious because even choir masters don't grasp that there is a difference between singing and chanting.

There are several sites on the web where you can hear real chanting. I presume you can also find You Tube videos of real chanting.

It is a tragedy that it virtually disappeared after the NO was introduced. What is so hard for me to understand is the idea, that became prevalent, that chanting was not possible in the vernacular, especially English. Which is simply idiotic. The Anglican Church has been chanting in English since the reformation.

I fully agree that the more relaxed standard of dress in Society in general as well as what Priests put up with at Mass have gone far beyond acceptable standards. But so have standards of general behavior.

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Mar 25th 2013 new

I recall chanting one time at my local parish NO Mass. I believe that it was around Easter or Christmas about two years ago.


It was very impressive. First of all, the choir conductor (and music teacher at the Catholic school) does an excellent and professional job with both the youth choirs and the adult choirs. At this particular NO Mass, a twenty-something former Catholic school student was home for the holidays from The Juilliard School where he was a music major. Very impressive.


www.juilliard.edu


Ed

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Mar 25th 2013 new

By the way... The chanting was in English.


Ed

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Mar 25th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: The fact is that most all of the heresies come from the left wing of the Church.The SSPX have nev...
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

The fact is that most all of the heresies come from the left wing of the Church.The SSPX have never been accused of a any heresy by the Popes.

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Schism, on the other hand...

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Mar 25th 2013 new

"Be it in the Ordinary or Extraordinary form, I have great faith in Pope Francis in that he will be true to the vision of St. Francis who believed that the liturgy should be an act of worship. Rebuilding the Church is not about one form of the Mass over the other, but about praying the Mass as it should be prayed in any form and any rite. The FORM of one mass over another is not the essence of the Mass. Going to one form makes us no more or no less holy than another form. Scripture says that we are to rend our hearts and not our garments. Mass must not focus on external displays of piety but the inner workings of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of men. The true act of worship does not stop at Mass. We are asked to evangelize just as Jesus told his apostles at the Last Supper. Have we done our obligation to evangelize? Perhaps it is time to put more SUBSTANCE into the form.

Regarding Pope Francis’ past record, just remember that St. Peter (our first Pope) didn’t have a good past record either when it came to risking his life vis-à-vis the political authorities. But in the end, he lived up to his calling as the Vicar of Christ.

Let us hone our FAITH and submit to the Holy Spirit." Dove theheart

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Mar 25th 2013 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: I beg to differ. You are misreading the instructions. In the NO the Priest is allowed to face t...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



I beg to differ. You are misreading the instructions. In the NO the Priest is allowed to face the people for the entire Mass. Popes John Paul II, Benedict XVI and now Francis all celebrate the NO mass facing the people. I have never witnessed an NO mass where the Priest did not face the people.



Specifically the instruction reads,"The Altar should be built apart from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that MASS CAN BE CELBRATED FACING THE PEOPLE, which is desirable whenever possible." Emphasis added.



The six instances you cite are instances applicable in both the NO and the TLM when the priest MUST must face the people.



Nothing in the instructions requires that either form of the Mass be celebrated with the Priest facing liturgical East.



In St. Peter's whenever Mass is celebrated at the main altar (the Pope's Mass) it was always said with the Pope facing the people. That has been true since St. Peter's has been standing for the simple reason that it is the way the altar was designed and built.



Chant, at the TLM in the days before VII was only heard at High Mass, seldom at daily masses. Rarely did the congregation join in the chanting for the simple reason that they did not know how. And of course, today, even most choirs are incapable of properly chanting. And what passes as chanting is, on average, atrocious because even choir masters don't grasp that there is a difference between singing and chanting.



There are several sites on the web where you can hear real chanting. I presume you can also find You Tube videos of real chanting.



It is a tragedy that it virtually disappeared after the NO was introduced. What is so hard for me to understand is the idea, that became prevalent, that chanting was not possible in the vernacular, especially English. Which is simply idiotic. The Anglican Church has been chanting in English since the reformation.



I fully agree that the more relaxed standard of dress in Society in general as well as what Priests put up with at Mass have gone far beyond acceptable standards. But so have standards of general behavior.

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It seems that these rules about when the priest is to face the people would imply that he is, for the most part not facing the people. Why then don't the rubrics just say that he is to face the people the entire Mass? We should all be facing God together and offering sacrifice to Him as one body.

It made me sad to read what you wrote about chant. I didn't realize people were butchering it. But I have limited experience with the TLM and have been very fortunate to only have been to High Masses that were otherworldly in their beauty, including the chant. I've also been to low Masses without music and they were also incredibly reverent and wonderful. I realize that people are different and have their own preferences, but to me it just blows me away that anyone wouldn't prefer the TLM. The difference to me is night and day.

And I agree about dress and standards of behavior. It's sad but no longer shocking. And the fact that it's no longer shocking is also sad. ; )

I'm going to take the rest of the week off from forum posting so I can better prepare myself interiorly. I wish you a most blessed Holy Week.
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Mar 25th 2013 new
(Quote) Monica-730858 said: I think it's a sad thought that children could be better accommodated at the NO Mass. It's not su...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

I think it's a sad thought that children could be better accommodated at the NO Mass. It's not supposed to be about us and we have to teach our children that. My brother has four boys aged four and under (set of twins in there) and they are the most well behaved bunch at Mass because they've been taught...same goes for every other family at their parish. There are more graces attached to the High Mass and our kiddos need all of the graces they can receive, especially in the current world we live in. I heard that satanists pay a lot more for hosts consecrated at the TLM because they realize this as well. We just need to get away from this idea that the Mass is about the people...it's already much to Protestant feeling as it is. Jesus expressed his sadness to many saints about the way he is treated by his priests as the Mass. You should read what he told Padre Pio about this stuff. And speaking of Padre Pio, he used to post signs about proper attire for women at Confession and Mass and refused to hear their Confessions until they went home and changed into something appropriate to wear to approach the Lord.
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I am currently a teacher. I'm not saying that kids should go to the NO mass, just that they and their parents might be more comfortable there with a more participatory mass than the EF. It is quite difficult to have a child sit for long periods of time, although some can be trained by their parents to do that, and they do well. If a child can do the EF, then I think that that is a great experience for them.
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Mar 25th 2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: It seems that these rules about when the priest is to face the people would imply that he is, f...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

It seems that these rules about when the priest is to face the people would imply that he is, for the most part not facing the people. Why then don't the rubrics just say that he is to face the people the entire Mass? We should all be facing God together and offering sacrifice to Him as one body.

It made me sad to read what you wrote about chant. I didn't realize people were butchering it. But I have limited experience with the TLM and have been very fortunate to only have been to High Masses that were otherworldly in their beauty, including the chant. I've also been to low Masses without music and they were also incredibly reverent and wonderful. I realize that people are different and have their own preferences, but to me it just blows me away that anyone wouldn't prefer the TLM. The difference to me is night and day.

And I agree about dress and standards of behavior. It's sad but no longer shocking. And the fact that it's no longer shocking is also sad. ; )

I'm going to take the rest of the week off from forum posting so I can better prepare myself interiorly. I wish you a most blessed Holy Week.
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The rules are mandatory in nature. They specify the times when a priest saying a Mass in any form must face the people. So in that sense they imply the priest is otherwise in the Liturgical East position.

I have already quoted to you the rubrics that specifically say that the preferred method for saying the Mass is that the Priest is facing the people.

Further, I pointed out to you that since St. Peter's was built, whenever the Pope says Mass whoever he wa sor is always said or says the Mass facing the People. That has been true for the better part of 1000 years. It is also true in many other churches because of the way the Church was built.

The fact remains that for the greater part of history, Mass was celebrated facing the people.

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Mar 25th 2013 new

(Quote) Rosemarie-744159 said: "Be it in the Ordinary or Extraordinary form, I have great faith in Pope Franci...
(Quote) Rosemarie-744159 said:

"Be it in the Ordinary or Extraordinary form, I have great faith in Pope Francis in that he will be true to the vision of St. Francis who believed that the liturgy should be an act of worship. Rebuilding the Church is not about one form of the Mass over the other, but about praying the Mass as it should be prayed in any form and any rite. The FORM of one mass over another is not the essence of the Mass. Going to one form makes us no more or no less holy than another form. Scripture says that we are to rend our hearts and not our garments. Mass must not focus on external displays of piety but the inner workings of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of men. The true act of worship does not stop at Mass. We are asked to evangelize just as Jesus told his apostles at the Last Supper. Have we done our obligation to evangelize? Perhaps it is time to put more SUBSTANCE into the form.

Regarding Pope Francis’ past record, just remember that St. Peter (our first Pope) didn’t have a good past record either when it came to risking his life vis-à-vis the political authorities. But in the end, he lived up to his calling as the Vicar of Christ.

Let us hone our FAITH and submit to the Holy Spirit."

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What form of Mass is this that the then Archbishop is saying?Fast forward to the 7 minute mark and watch.A puppet Mass? boggled I know someone will defend this,but it boggles the mind.I hope it's not a sign of things to come.So far his Papal Masses have been good,unlike this when no one was watching.mundabor.wordpress.com

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