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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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Mar 25th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: What form of Mass is this that the then Archbishop is saying?Fast forward to the 7 minute mark an...
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

What form of Mass is this that the then Archbishop is saying?Fast forward to the 7 minute mark and watch.A puppet Mass? I know someone will defend this,but it boggles the mind.I hope it's not a sign of things to come.So far his Papal Masses have been good,unlike this when no one was watching.mundabor.wordpress.com

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A mass for children. An attempt is made to illustrate the Bishop's sermon for the children.

Aside from that, the Mass is being said reverently and following the rubrics.

So what is wrong with that?

By the way, obviously there werea lot of people watching this.

Tell me Bernard, why do you make such a hard effort to find something to be critical of?

Is you own life so blameless?

As Christ said, "He who is without sin" can caste the first stone.

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Mar 25th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: (Quote) Bernard-2709 said: What form of Mass is this that the then Archbish...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Quote:
Bernard-2709 said:

What form of Mass is this that the then Archbishop is saying?Fast forward to the 7 minute mark and watch.A puppet Mass? I know someone will defend this,but it boggles the mind.I hope it's not a sign of things to come.So far his Papal Masses have been good,unlike this when no one was watching.mundabor.wordpress.com


A mass for children. An attempt is made to illustrate the Bishop's sermon for the children.

Aside from that, the Mass is being said reverently and following the rubrics.

So what is wrong with that?

By the way, obviously there werea lot of people watching this.

Tell me Bernard, why do you make such a hard effort to find something to be critical of?

Is you own life so blameless?

As Christ said, "He who is without sin" can caste the first stone.

--hide--
It's not about blame.It is what it is.You watched for yourself.I am not comparing myself to him either.I never accused him of sinning.It's a stupid Puppet Mass.Nothing else needs to be said.

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Mar 25th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: What form of Mass is this that the then Archbishop is saying?Fast forward to the 7 minute mark an...
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

What form of Mass is this that the then Archbishop is saying?Fast forward to the 7 minute mark and watch.A puppet Mass? I know someone will defend this,but it boggles the mind.I hope it's not a sign of things to come.So far his Papal Masses have been good,unlike this when no one was watching.mundabor.wordpress.com

--hide--


Hi, Bernie! wave I know it is mind-boggling for some, but for me, it's a cultural thing. I often think that the survival of Catholicism may depend on a better understanding of both the interconnectedness and diversity of people. Afterall, Catholicism is not just for the Western culture and it does mean “universal”.

Drawn from the passage of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, in which are given the norms for adaptation of the liturgy to the character and the traditions of the various peoples:

“In matters which do not affect the faith or the well-being of an entire community, the Church does not wish, even in the Liturgy, to impose a rigid uniformity; on the contrary, she respects and fosters the genius and talents of various races and people. Whatever in their way of life is not indissolubly bound up with superstition and error, she looks upon with benevolence and if possible keeps it intact, and sometimes even admits it into the Liturgy provided it accords with the genuine and authentic liturgical spirit.”

There is a great difference in cultures: what is well received in one culture cannot be taken on by another culture. Concretely: there are cultures in which this is possible insofar as dancing is still reflective of religious values and becomes a clear manifestation of them. Such is the case of the Ethiopians. In their culture, even today, there is the religious ritualized dance, clearly distinct from the martial dance and from the amorous dance. The ritual dance is performed by priests and levites before beginning a ceremony and in the open are in front of the church. The dance accompanies the chanting of psalms during the procession. When the procession enters the church, then the chanting of the psalms is carried out with and accompanied by bodily movement. The same thing is found in the Syriac liturgy by means of chanting of psalms. In the Byzantine Liturgy, there is an extremely simplified dance on the occasion of a wedding when the crowned spouses make a circular revolution around the lectern together with the celebrant. Such is the case of the Israelites: in the synagogue their prayer is accompanied by a continuous movement to recall the precept from tradition: “When you pray, do so with all your heart, and all your bones.”


Dove

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Mar 25th 2013 new

(Quote) Rosemarie-744159 said: (Quote) Bernard-2709 said: What form of Mass is this that the then Arc...
(Quote) Rosemarie-744159 said:

Quote:
Bernard-2709 said:

What form of Mass is this that the then Archbishop is saying?Fast forward to the 7 minute mark and watch.A puppet Mass? I know someone will defend this,but it boggles the mind.I hope it's not a sign of things to come.So far his Papal Masses have been good,unlike this when no one was watching.mundabor.wordpress.com



Hi, Bernie! I know it is mind-boggling for some, but for me, it's a cultural thing. I often think that the survival of Catholicism may depend on a better understanding of both the interconnectedness and diversity of people. Afterall, Catholicism is not just for the Western culture and it does mean “universal”.

Drawn from the passage of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, in which are given the norms for adaptation of the liturgy to the character and the traditions of the various peoples:

“In matters which do not affect the faith or the well-being of an entire community, the Church does not wish, even in the Liturgy, to impose a rigid uniformity; on the contrary, she respects and fosters the genius and talents of various races and people. Whatever in their way of life is not indissolubly bound up with superstition and error, she looks upon with benevolence and if possible keeps it intact, and sometimes even admits it into the Liturgy provided it accords with the genuine and authentic liturgical spirit.”

There is a great difference in cultures: what is well received in one culture cannot be taken on by another culture. Concretely: there are cultures in which this is possible insofar as dancing is still reflective of religious values and becomes a clear manifestation of them. Such is the case of the Ethiopians. In their culture, even today, there is the religious ritualized dance, clearly distinct from the martial dance and from the amorous dance. The ritual dance is performed by priests and levites before beginning a ceremony and in the open are in front of the church. The dance accompanies the chanting of psalms during the procession. When the procession enters the church, then the chanting of the psalms is carried out with and accompanied by bodily movement. The same thing is found in the Syriac liturgy by means of chanting of psalms. In the Byzantine Liturgy, there is an extremely simplified dance on the occasion of a wedding when the crowned spouses make a circular revolution around the lectern together with the celebrant. Such is the case of the Israelites: in the synagogue their prayer is accompanied by a continuous movement to recall the precept from tradition: “When you pray, do so with all your heart, and all your bones.”

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I don't see how culture has anything to do with it.

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Mar 25th 2013 new

Through the ages, the Catholic church has always worked with and incorporated into the native cultures of the locations and peoples that it serves. Even cultures with pagan customs were infused by the Church by "modifying" and "Christianising" the important local customs, festival dates and cultural practices. To say that culture should have nothing to do with it flies in the face of how Catholicism has spread to every corner of the world over the past 2000 years.

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Mar 25th 2013 new
(Quote) ED-20630 said: Through the ages, the Catholic church has always worked with and incorporated into the native cultures
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

Through the ages, the Catholic church has always worked with and incorporated into the native cultures of the locations and peoples that it serves. Even cultures with pagan customs were infused by the Church by "modifying" and "Christianising" the important local customs, festival dates and cultural practices. To say that culture should have nothing to do with it flies in the face of how Catholicism has spread to every corner of the world over the past 2000 years.

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Yes, the Mass throughout history has certainly been influenced by various cultures, but there have always been limits to what was allowed. Secular-style music or dancing in a Mass setting is very problematic. Rather than complementing the Mass and helping direct our attention to the heavens, it instead draws attention to itself. I don't believe there is any threat or possibility of a puppet Mass sneaking into any Papal Masses anytime soon.

That being said, I'm with Bernard with regards to that video. That was horrendous.

I was going to post a lengthy quote from Pope Benedict XVI's book on the liturgy with regards to contemporary music in the Mass, but for the sake of brevity I think I'll just post another relevant quote from the same book which addresses dancing in the liturgy.

"Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy." - (then) Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger
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Mar 25th 2013 new

(Quote) ED-20630 said: Through the ages, the Catholic church has always worked with and incorporated into the native...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

Through the ages, the Catholic church has always worked with and incorporated into the native cultures of the locations and peoples that it serves. Even cultures with pagan customs were infused by the Church by "modifying" and "Christianising" the important local customs, festival dates and cultural practices. To say that culture should have nothing to do with it flies in the face of how Catholicism has spread to every corner of the world over the past 2000 years.

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I am well versed in the different Rites of the Church.A puppet Mass has nothing to do with the culture in Argentina ,because they have those silly Masses here in the states too,(also clown masses).

LOCKED
Mar 25th 2013 new

I generally agree with you.


It seems to me that the general criteria that the Church uses (in terms of what is appropriate) is whether it complements the celebration of the Mass or whether it instead draws attention to itself (as you stated). My thought (perhaps a rule of thumb) is that if one would think that they should clap their hands after the music is played or the choir finishes, then the song or performance isn't appropriate for the Mass.... as it is drawing attention away from the Mass.


I've never been to any Catholic Mass or a Catholic wedding (w/ or w/o a Mass) where there was any secular-style music. My mom has played organ for probably hundreds of weddings (starting from the young age of 14). The occasion of a wedding is often when the idea of using secular music creeps into the Mass because the bride and groom usually participate in picking out the hymns. Usually the bride, groom and perhaps their mothers would come over to our house so that Mom could work with them to select appropriate hymns. I can remember a number of times where Mom would tell them that one of their selections couldn't be used because it was secular or not appropriate for a Church wedding and Mass. Those secular songs can be used later at the reception (outside of the church), if desired.


About 15 years ago, I did attend a Mass at the Catholic Newman Center in Berkeley, CA..... (home of University of California, Berkeley). Berkeley is known for be quite "out there" in terms of pushing social limitations of all sorts. I forget the actual occasion, but I believe that it was for one of the Masses around Easter or Christmas. To my surprise, there was a 10-minute (or so) dance performance integrated somehow into the celebration of the Mass. Objectively, the dancers were quite professional (being university theater students), but it was very much a performance that really detracted from the Mass. Maybe it was a one-time thing that they realized was not appropriate... but only after they tried it.


Ed

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Mar 25th 2013 new

Bernard,


In my prior post, I was not addressing what you called the "puppet Mass". I was addressing your comment that... "I don't see how culture has anything to do with it.".


Ed

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Mar 25th 2013 new

(Quote) ED-20630 said: I've never been to any Catholic Mass or a Catholic wedding (w/ or w/o a Mass) where there was any...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

I've never been to any Catholic Mass or a Catholic wedding (w/ or w/o a Mass) where there was any secular-style music. My mom has played organ for probably hundreds of weddings (starting from the young age of 14). The occasion of a wedding is often when the idea of using secular music creeps into the Mass because the bride and groom usually participate in picking out the hymns.

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Perhaps the fact your mother played the organ instead of a piano/guitar/drum/whatever had some bearing on your experience. The worst I recall with an organ was some Protestant church music; with the more secular instruments you start running in to the really far-out (for Mass) music.

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