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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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Mar 25th 2013 new

(Quote) ED-20630 said: Bernard, In my prior post, I was not addressing what you called the "puppet Mass"...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

Bernard,


In my prior post, I was not addressing what you called the "puppet Mass". I was addressing your comment that... "I don't see how culture has anything to do with it.".


Ed

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My comment about the culture was regarding the Puppet Mass.

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Mar 25th 2013 new

The Protestant churches do seem to be much more into "performance style" music.... Apparently even much more so in a few of the mega-churches around here (Northern California). Over the years I have thought about why this is the case. The answer that I have come up with is that they feel that they need to create a spectacular "performance" because the simply don't have the Eucharist. This is not a knock on these churches, just a simple fact. If the Catholic Church were to somehow take the Eucharist out of the Mass, then I think what remains would become some sort of "performance" too.


I must admit that it is hard for me to imagine my mom playing a guitar or drums! laughing She still plays the piano a lot in their home, and uses the piano to practice hymns and play them when picking out music to be played in church. Their church only has an organ (no piano) and outdoor chimes that are attached to the organ. At Christmas-time, she will sometimes play Christmas hymns on the on the chimes that ring from the bell tower. It can be heard for miles around. Those are nice memories. Incidentally, I do recall my mom play organ as two others played violin at Mass. That sounded great. Also a few times... organ hymn with a trumpet. That can sound great and (I think) very appropriate for a special Mass.


My worst experience with an organ at church.... About a year ago, someone at a nearby parish got the idea that one of these small electric organs would sound good at Mass. It sounded HORRIBLE and tinny too. I've never seen them use that organ since, so I believe that it was banned from the church. clap


Ed

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Mar 25th 2013 new

Fair enough. I was thinking of "culture" in more general terms.


Ed

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Mar 25th 2013 new
(Quote) ED-20630 said: I generally agree with you. It seems to me that the general criteria that the Church uses (in te...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

I generally agree with you.




It seems to me that the general criteria that the Church uses (in terms of what is appropriate) is whether it complements the celebration of the Mass or whether it instead draws attention to itself (as you stated). My thought (perhaps a rule of thumb) is that if one would think that they should clap their hands after the music is played or the choir finishes, then the song or performance isn't appropriate for the Mass.... as it is drawing attention away from the Mass.




I've never been to any Catholic Mass or a Catholic wedding (w/ or w/o a Mass) where there was any secular-style music. My mom has played organ for probably hundreds of weddings (starting from the young age of 14). The occasion of a wedding is often when the idea of using secular music creeps into the Mass because the bride and groom usually participate in picking out the hymns. Usually the bride, groom and perhaps their mothers would come over to our house so that Mom could work with them to select appropriate hymns. I can remember a number of times where Mom would tell them that one of their selections couldn't be used because it was secular or not appropriate for a Church wedding and Mass. Those secular songs can be used later at the reception (outside of the church), if desired.




About 15 years ago, I did attend a Mass at the Catholic Newman Center in Berkeley, CA..... (home of University of California, Berkeley). Berkeley is known for be quite "out there" in terms of pushing social limitations of all sorts. I forget the actual occasion, but I believe that it was for one of the Masses around Easter or Christmas. To my surprise, there was a 10-minute (or so) dance performance integrated somehow into the celebration of the Mass. Objectively, the dancers were quite professional (being university theater students), but it was very much a performance that really detracted from the Mass. Maybe it was a one-time thing that they realized was not appropriate... but only after they tried it.




Ed



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Yeah, by secular music I was generally referring to any music accompanied by a guitar, drum set, bongo, tambourine, even piano in many cases. I like the rule of thumb about having the urge to applaud after a song as being a detraction from the Mass. Another one that I use is if I inadvertently start tapping my foot along to any song during Mass.

It also drives me up a wall when the musicians are located in the very front of the church, sometimes practically inside the sanctuary itself, almost as if they are intentionally vying for attention. It reminds of this bit of satire from the always-hilarious "Eye of the Tiber": www.eyeofthetiber.com
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Mar 25th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: I beg to differ. You are misreading the instructions. In the NO the Priest is allowed to ...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

I beg to differ. You are misreading the instructions. In the NO the Priest is allowed to face the people for the entire Mass. Popes John Paul II, Benedict XVI and now Francis all celebrate the NO mass facing the people. I have never witnessed an NO mass where the Priest did not face the people.

Specifically the instruction reads,"The Altar should be built apart from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that MASS CAN BE CELBRATED FACING THE PEOPLE, which is desirable whenever possible." Emphasis added.

The six instances you cite are instances applicable in both the NO and the TLM when the priest MUST must face the people.

Nothing in the instructions requires that either form of the Mass be celebrated with the Priest facing liturgical East.

In St. Peter's whenever Mass is celebrated at the main altar (the Pope's Mass) it was always said with the Pope facing the people. That has been true since St. Peter's has been standing for the simple reason that it is the way the altar was designed and built.

Chant, at the TLM in the days before VII was only heard at High Mass, seldom at daily masses. Rarely did the congregation join in the chanting for the simple reason that they did not know how. And of course, today, even most choirs are incapable of properly chanting. And what passes as chanting is, on average, atrocious because even choir masters don't grasp that there is a difference between singing and chanting.

There are several sites on the web where you can hear real chanting. I presume you can also find You Tube videos of real chanting.

It is a tragedy that it virtually disappeared after the NO was introduced. What is so hard for me to understand is the idea, that became prevalent, that chanting was not possible in the vernacular, especially English. Which is simply idiotic. The Anglican Church has been chanting in English since the reformation.

I fully agree that the more relaxed standard of dress in Society in general as well as what Priests put up with at Mass have gone far beyond acceptable standards. But so have standards of general behavior.

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I agree with your points on chanting in English. My parish also has an Anglican Use Mass. This Mass has chanting in English. It is just as beautiful as chanting in Latin/Greek/etc.

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Apr 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: A mass for children. An attempt is made to illustrate the Bishop's sermon for the chi...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

A mass for children. An attempt is made to illustrate the Bishop's sermon for the children.

Aside from that, the Mass is being said reverently and following the rubrics.

So what is wrong with that?

By the way, obviously there werea lot of people watching this.

Tell me Bernard, why do you make such a hard effort to find something to be critical of?

Is you own life so blameless?

As Christ said, "He who is without sin" can caste the first stone.

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I have to agree with Paul. This is a children’s mass, and there is perhaps a cultural element to take into consideration, not a Rite, but a cultural element – it is taking place in a Latin American country. At first I thought this is not a mass I would not want to attend. Then I reminded myself I am not a child.

Then I thought about the masses that I attended as a child that took place in the gymnasium of my Catholic elementary school and the gymnasium of my Catholic all-girls high school. A gymnasium – where else is it economically and logistically feasible to take the kids out of class on a regular basis for Mass (first Friday of the Month, plus every week during Lent and Advent). The basketball nets were at both ends, and the altar would be up against the wall at half-court. We’d bring our chairs in, so there were no kneelers, because it was the gymnasium. Holy Mass was celebrated by a Catholic priest who came in from one of the local parishes.

The masses at high school sometimes had upwards of 800-900 students, all female, all teenagers, same gymnasium set-up because the chapel onsite could not hold that many people. Holy Mass was celebrated by a Catholic priest from a local parish. The music portion of the liturgy was organized by the Sisters who taught us. They used guitars, and sometimes a flute or a violin. There was no elegant traditional pipe organ in the gymnasium.

Pope Francis served the people, the children. Sounds like what Jesus did when he said: 'Let the little children come to me; do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs.’ (Mark 10:14)


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Apr 2nd 2013 new
The problem with the way the Novus Ordo Mass is celebrated in many parishes is that it becomes more about entertainment than about entering into the sacred mystery.

The Traditional Roman Mass and the Eastern liturgies by contrast are vertical in their theological and spiritual orientation. They are about offering sacrifice to God where the people are anonymous rather than audiences looking for the sort of pleasure you find in a movie theater or at a rock concert.

Our entertainment culture belongs outside of Mass rather than in the Mass where it distracts from the solemnity.

If you want entertainment do it in the Church hall.
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Apr 2nd 2013 new
(Quote) Monica-730858 said: Actually, it is an abuse for the priest to face the people for the entire Mass, he is only to do so durin...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

Actually, it is an abuse for the priest to face the people for the entire Mass, he is only to do so during these specific times:



1)When giving the opening greeting (GIRM 124).



2)When giving the invitation to pray at the end of the offertory, Pray brethren (GIRM 146).



3)When giving the greeting of peace (GIRM 154).



4) When displaying the Host and Chalice before Communion and saying: Behold the Lamb of God (GIRM 157).



5) When inviting the people to pray before the post communion prayer (GIRM 165).



6)When giving the final blessing (Ordo Missae 141).



I stand corrected about altar girls. It was condemned at one point but I see now that they are allowed. What I've read though is that a great number of Bishops and Priests don't find this favorable as fewer priestly vocations come from altar boys if they start to perceive serving as a girl's job.



I completely understand the points you are making about dress. I personally think we should wear our "Sunday best" but that is just a preference. But even if we were to wear everyday attire to Mass, it shouldn't be immodest, offensive or give scandal to anyone. Mary told the children at Fatima that some fashions would offend Our Lord very much.



I also understand what John was saying but what he posted didn't appear to be specifically speaking of the Mass. Chant was never supposed to be done away with at the new Mass.
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They are optional rubrics for when the priest CHOOSES to celebrate Mass ad orientem.
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Apr 2nd 2013 new
(Quote) John-336509 said: Schism, on the other hand...
(Quote) John-336509 said:



Schism, on the other hand...

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The SSPX isn't in schism, but it's ministry is as canonically licit as Dignity for example.
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Apr 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: The SSPX isn't in schism, but it's ministry is as canonically licit as Dignity for exampl...
(Quote) John-220051 said:

The SSPX isn't in schism, but it's ministry is as canonically licit as Dignity for example.
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The SSPX is in Schism and has been declared so.

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