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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Apr 3rd 2013 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Since my opinion is in line with every Pope I have persoal knolwedge of, which inlcudes most of ...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



Since my opinion is in line with every Pope I have persoal knolwedge of, which inlcudes most of them in the 20th century, I,at least, have grounds to stand on for my opinion.

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Hubris.
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Apr 3rd 2013 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Which proves my statement that anyone who loses their Faith over the Novus Ordo does so from wit...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



Which proves my statement that anyone who loses their Faith over the Novus Ordo does so from within themselves and not from the Mass.



Lukewarm and liberal clergy is a description of personal failures of those clergy who are luke warm and or improperly liberal.



What the SSPX preaches is nonsense. If it were not, it would not be separated from Rome.

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So then what the FSSP, Institute of Christ the King and other canonically recognized traditionalist groupings preach is nonsense too?
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Apr 3rd 2013 new
The Novus Ordo is an added ecumenical stumbling block to unity with the Orthodox.
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Apr 3rd 2013 new
(Quote) John-336509 said: That's all true, and not a word of it contradicts anything I've said. And...
(Quote) John-336509 said:



That's all true, and not a word of it contradicts anything I've said.



And none of it changes the fact that the Vatican has repeatedly asked the faithful to not attend SSPX chapels because of (among other things) the real danger of falling into a "schismatic mindset" (Vatican's words).



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That's why I compared SSPX to Dignity, which has similarly been condemned by the Church.Surely Dignity has a schismatic mindset, but it has never been formally declared outside the Catholic Church.
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Apr 3rd 2013 new
(Quote) John-220051 said: Getting personal aren't we. I've read the documents of Vatican II, and they really have very little...
(Quote) John-220051 said:

Getting personal aren't we. I've read the documents of Vatican II, and they really have very little to do with how the curia and bishops went about implementing it in the years following the council.



Let me put it this way. The Novus Ordo is an ecumenical stumbling block to unity with the Orthodox because it was a synthetic work of a committee rather than an organic development.



Too many older Catholics are stuck in the "Spirit of Vatican II" and what Pope Benedict called the "hermaneutic of rupture" rather than continuity. Vatican II has to be understood in the light of the councils and Church fathers that preceded it and not in the light of the idol of human progress.



My criticism is aimed at the implementation of Vatican II and the interpretation that bishops, "theologians" and others gave the council.
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Let's be fair: I don't think the committees which aided in the design of the OF desired a Mass with cheapy music and priests who sometimes add their own "voicing", if you will (I.e., final blessing with the priest saying in the tone of a cowboy, "Let the Church say, 'AAA--men!')
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Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: Getting personal aren't we. I've read the documents of Vatican II, and they really have v...
(Quote) John-220051 said:

Getting personal aren't we. I've read the documents of Vatican II, and they really have very little to do with how the curia and bishops went about implementing it in the years following the council.

Let me put it this way. The Novus Ordo is an ecumenical stumbling block to unity with the Orthodox because it was a synthetic work of a committee rather than an organic development.

Too many older Catholics are stuck in the "Spirit of Vatican II" and what Pope Benedict called the "hermaneutic of rupture" rather than continuity. Vatican II has to be understood in the light of the councils and Church fathers that preceded it and not in the light of the idol of human progress.

My criticism is aimed at the implementation of Vatican II and the interpretation that bishops, "theologians" and others gave the council.
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Labeling the Novus as sythetic and not organic is utter nonsense.

It is no more synthetic than any other form of the Mass.

So what if a Committee put it together? Do you honestly believe that the form of the Mass celebrated in the East just sprang whole and entire in John C's brain, zapped there by thye Holy Spirit? Or because he was the one to whom it is attributed that it is no more or less synthetic? Do you think that the TLM was kind of a spontaneous development? It too, to use yoiur terms, was a synthetic development by a committee.

Yes, the "Spirit of Vatican II" did a lot of damage. For the simple reason that those who pushed it had not read the documents any more than the people who today condemn VII as an abomination have read them.

AS far as the stumbling block to unity with the East, it still remains, mainly, the position of the Pope. The committees that have been meeting for years have already agreed that no theological stumbling blocks exist to untity and that the main issue is the Papacy. The Novus can be no problem because untity no more requires them to use it than the Eastern Catholics are required to use it.

Any one claiming otherwise, is looking for excuses, not dealing in reality.

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Apr 3rd 2013 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Labeling the Novus as sythetic and not organic is utter nonsense. It is no more s...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



Labeling the Novus as sythetic and not organic is utter nonsense.



It is no more synthetic than any other form of the Mass.



So what if a Committee put it together? Do you honestly believe that the form of the Mass celebrated in the East just sprang whole and entire in John C's brain, zapped there by thye Holy Spirit? Or because he was the one to whom it is attributed that it is no more or less synthetic? Do you think that the TLM was kind of a spontaneous development? It too, to use yoiur terms, was a synthetic development by a committee.



Yes, the "Spirit of Vatican II" did a lot of damage. For the simple reason that those who pushed it had not read the documents any more than the people who today condemn VII as an abomination have read them.



AS far as the stumbling block to unity with the East, it still remains, mainly, the position of the Pope. The committees that have been meeting for years have already agreed that no theological stumbling blocks exist to untity and that the main issue is the Papacy. The Novus can be no problem because untity no more requires them to use it than the Eastern Catholics are required to use it.



Any one claiming otherwise, is looking for excuses, not dealing in reality.



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Even then-Cardinal Ratzinger didn't think the Novus Ordo was a product of organic development. Here's a quote from his preface to Klaus Gamber's book on the new liturgy:

"What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it - as in a manufacturing process - with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product."
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Apr 3rd 2013 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: If a person loses their faith in the Novus Ordo, it is their failing, not the Mass's.
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



If a person loses their faith in the Novus Ordo, it is their failing, not the Mass's.

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It isn't always the fault of the individual. When I converted I had to learn what the Church actually taught on my own. And some people don't even realize they are not being taught the true faith in RCIA. I was taught all manner of garbage in my RCIA program. "Sure there's a hell, but we can have a great hope that no one is actually there"...What?? Hearing things like that most definitely contributes to a loss of faith and the fault there doesn't lie solely on the laity. Funny that you never hear ridiculousness like that at Catechism classes at TLM parishes.
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Apr 3rd 2013 new
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: Wrong! It's the fault of the lukewarm,and liberal clergy.That's what all fail to understand and what th...
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

Wrong! It's the fault of the lukewarm,and liberal clergy.That's what all fail to understand and what the SSPX preach.It's about the Faith!

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The road to hell is paved with the skulls of erring priests, with bishops as their signposts.

St. John Chrysostom
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Apr 3rd 2013 new

If I remember right Pope Benedict, in Australia, put some SPPX priests in charge of some parishes a few years ago. He wanted to straighten some things out there and he thought they could do that.

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