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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: It isn't always the fault of the individual. When I converted I had to learn what the Churc...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

It isn't always the fault of the individual. When I converted I had to learn what the Church actually taught on my own. And some people don't even realize they are not being taught the true faith in RCIA. I was taught all manner of garbage in my RCIA program. "Sure there's a hell, but we can have a great hope that no one is actually there"...What?? Hearing things like that most definitely contributes to a loss of faith and the fault there doesn't lie solely on the laity. Funny that you never hear ridiculousness like that at Catechism classes at TLM parishes.
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So you did it on your own, which is exactly who I said wasresponsible. You were taught by indivudlas who were wrong., They were wrong as indivudals as they had no standing to speak for the Church. So it was individuals who failed.

What is so hard to understand that?

Through your own effort you found what the Church teaches. While you were attending RCIA the Church still taught the same thing whether it was conveyed to you in those classes or not.

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Apr 3rd 2013 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: So you did it on your own, which is exactly who I said wasresponsible. You were taught by indiv...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



So you did it on your own, which is exactly who I said wasresponsible. You were taught by indivudlas who were wrong., They were wrong as indivudals as they had no standing to speak for the Church. So it was individuals who failed.



What is so hard to understand that?



Through your own effort you found what the Church teaches. While you were attending RCIA the Church still taught the same thing whether it was conveyed to you in those classes or not.

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It seems that most people attending RCIA take what the instructors say at face value and they shouldn't have to wonder whether or not they are getting the authentic faith. It isn't presented as someone's opinion, but as carrying the weight of the Church. And there was a priest teaching mine. I had ever right to expect that a priest who had been through seminary was teaching the truth. You might want to reconsider using the phrase "why is it so hard to understand that?" because you have used it repeatedly and whether or not you realize it, it comes across as very condescending and insulting. You are much more learned than I am, and I am very open to hearing what everyone has to say. But no one is going to listen with an open heart when they feel they are being insulted.
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Apr 3rd 2013 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Oh for God's sake. Sit down with a missal for the Latin Mass and for the Novus Ordo and comp...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



Oh for God's sake. Sit down with a missal for the Latin Mass and for the Novus Ordo and compare them step by step and you will find that there is no necessary difference between the 2. The Novus has more readings and more allowable variations for the Eucharistic prayers. But each part of the Mass does the same thing now as it did then. Indivudla prayers may be different but they accomplish the same thing.



Everything being complained about has nothing to do with Dogma or Doctrine but only discipline and practice which are changable at any time by the Church.



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There's the problem with the Roman Church from the Orthodox perspective. Law comes first then prayer rather than the other way around. From the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic perspective the liturgy flows from the organic life of the Church rather than from the sterile law books of arrogant elites.

The liturgy is unchangeable from the Eastern Christian standpoint. The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom has remained largely the same for over 1,000 years.

The late Patriarch Alexei II had the following to say when Pope Benedict issued Summorum Pontificum:

"The recovery and valuing of the ancient liturgical tradition is a fact that we greet positively. We hold very strongly to tradition. Without faithfully guarding the liturgical tradition, the Russian Orthodox Church would not have been in a position to resist during the period of persecution, in the 20′s and 30′s in the 1900′s. In that time we had many new martyrs, whose number can be compared to the epoch of the first Christian martyrs."

"It seems that Pope Benedict XVI has repeated may times that he desires to work in favor of dialogue and collaboration with the Orthodox Churches. This is positive."

I have read both the Novus Ordo and the preconciliar side by side, and the Novus Ordo's liturgical texts are theologically impoverished in comparison and lack the depth of the Old rite.

I am afraid I don't quite understand your animus against the Old rite.
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Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: ...I am afraid I don't quite understand your animus against the Old rite.
(Quote) John-220051 said:

...

I am afraid I don't quite understand your animus against the Old rite.
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?!?!?!

The fact that you think Paul has any animus at all against the old rite shows that you completely do not understand Paul!!!

Given a choice between siding with those whose think their personal interpretation of tradition is binding on the Magesterium and siding with the Magesterium itself, Paul simply does what any good Catholic would do and backs his Church, not those who would bend it to their personal preferences.

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Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: What about losing the faith in the Novus Ordo.
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

What about losing the faith in the Novus Ordo.

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non sequitor

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Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: The fact that a church Council gave its stamp of approval tonthe 1571 liturgy and not to ...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

The fact that a church Council gave its stamp of approval tonthe 1571 liturgy and not to this one is a differnce with no meaning. The Novus Ordo was approved and Promulgated by the Pope. It needs no other approval since that is the highest approval possible. No Counciler pronouncement has any meaning without the Poipe'sapproval. Ergo the Pope approved it in 1571 when her approved the Counciler documents and a Pope apporved the 1969 missal when he approved and promulgated it.

Stop trying to play the law game. Look to the reality behind the Law.

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Paul, I am not claiming that the 1969 Missal is invalid...and that when Mass is offered according to it, that there is no Mass.

I am merely claiming that the modified Canon of the 1969 Missal (of which there are several) is not protected from containing errors of any kind, whereas the Roman Canon offered according to the Missa Tridentina has been declared, by solemn judgment of the Church, NOT to contain any errors. This solemn judgment is, in fact, the Pope's by means of his approval of the Conciliar decrees and canons as they stood.

Both are valid forms of the Mass; I am merely pointing out that I do not see the benefit of changing things to what can contain error from what DID NOT contain error.

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Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: (Quote) Bernard-2709 said: What about losing the faith in the Novus Ordo.
(Quote) John-336509 said:

Quote:
Bernard-2709 said:

What about losing the faith in the Novus Ordo.


non sequitor

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Yeah right John,you wish.

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Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: Yeah right John,you wish.
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

Yeah right John,you wish.

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So says the man who obviously can't explain how why he's right, much less why I'm wrong.

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Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: (Quote) Bernard-2709 said: Yeah right John,you wish.
(Quote) John-336509 said:

Quote:
Bernard-2709 said:

Yeah right John,you wish.


So says the man who obviously can't explain how why he's right, much less why I'm wrong.

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You are saying it's not possible to lose your Faith in the Novus Ordo (modern Church)?

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Apr 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: (Quote) John-336509 said: (Quote) Bernard-2709 said: <...
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

Quote:
John-336509 said:

Quote:
Bernard-2709 said:

Yeah right John,you wish.


So says the man who obviously can't explain how why he's right, much less why I'm wrong.


You are saying it's not possible to lose your Faith in the Novus Ordo (modern Church)?

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John,the answer is, yes,one can lose the Faith in the Novus Ordo.

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