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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Mar 24th 2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: I agree that the problems began before the NO was introduced. Obviously the NO didn't come ...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

I agree that the problems began before the NO was introduced. Obviously the NO didn't come out of nowhere. The new Mass wasn't exactly welcomed with open arms at Vatican II, with many opposed and many others approving but with reservations. All we can do now is look at the result of it all. Most of what we see at NO now are abuses that were never intended to happen. And speaking only from personal experience (I've heard of the NO being offered reverently but have never witnessed it personally) when I go to the NO I see attire appropriate for a dance club (if even then), people chattering, chewing gum, long lines for communion but no one at Confession, girls and women on the altar, guitars and tamborines, etc... and when I'm at the TLM I see respect and reverence, the priest facing God instead of the people, appropriate dress and modesty, long lines for Confession and homilies that actually mention the word sin. Here's a link to a great article by The Most Reverend Athanasius Schneider about what happens at the new Mass vs. what is actually supposed to happen:

catholictradition.blogspot.com
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I am sure that when the TLM was first introduced, it too was not welcomed with open arms by everyone. The NO was not introduced at Vatican II. But Paul VI called for the revision of the Mass in an attempt to make the Mass more meaningful and accessible to the Faithful as called for by Vatican II. I can agree that it is has failed in that.

Long before you were born and before Vatican II, people complained constantly, despite the ready accessibility and relatively inexpensive costs of missals to overcome the problem, that because the Mass was in Latin they had no idea what was going on. They fervently complained about the priest facing away from them so that they felt remote from him and the Mass.

The simple fact is that when the complaints were met, the people found they they still did not understand what was going on. They left in droves many to go to Protestant churches or worse, because their services were more emotionally fulfilling, despite the fact that they lack substance.

Long before you were born, I attended thousands of masses now referred to as TLMs. The reverance displayed ranged from excellent to even worse than I see now at NO masses.

But all that aside, don't forget, the Mass in early Christian times was celebrated in private homes. The celebrant faced the people women sat at the dinner table. Music came along later but when first introduced reflected the music of the day with Christian words, just like the "folk masses"of our day were an attempt to relate the music to people today. The celebrants wore no special vestments. They wore their everyday clothes, which today's vestments resemble. There were no special chalices, etc. Everyday eating utensils, cups and dishes were used.

More formal forms of the Mass and vestments developed only after Constantine made it legal to practice Christianity.

All that aside, the abuses you see, and whether you have seen them or not they also exist in TLM masses, arise solely from individuals, both priest and laity, and not from the form of the Mass. A good part of them arise from the general culture as it exists today. Less formal dress, lack of manners, etc..

About the time you were born, no women worthy of the name would appear dressed as they do today to go to the mall or "downtown" to shop, wearing a hat and gloves. My Dad, who could have been your great Grandfather, always wore a suit and tie. The suit jacket only came off in the house but never his ties until he went to bed. He would even do garden work that way, without the suit jacket of course. Today he would be considered a nut case.

Those changes are cultural and not the result of the NO.

LOCKED
Mar 24th 2013 new

John,


I too, do not understand the binary way of thinking (in situations such as these). If one option is "right", why must the other necessarily be "wrong"?


As you noted.... Intention is the most important thing when it comes to receiving the Eucharist.... A humble and contrite heart.


In Pope JPII's earlier days as a priest, he would take hiking trips into the mountains with his youth group. He would celebrate mass using the bottom side of a canoe as his alter. What this any less of a reverent Mass than the TLM? Apparently JPII felt that it was the intent that mattered most.


I had an uncle (Fr. Howard)(he died a couple of years ago) who was a diocesan priest. He was quite old-fashioned, in the best sense of the word. My grandmother (his mother), lived with my family for the last few years before she died in 1974. I can remember several times that we celebrated Mass in our home, when my uncle was visiting, so that my grandmother would not have to go through the difficult ordeal of going to church for the Mass. Was this Mass any less reverent than the TLM? I would say not, it is the intent that mattered most and it was appropriate to do so in that it relieved the physical stress on my grandmother.


One time we were having a family reunion in an unfamiliar resort town. My uncle (Fr. Howard) was also at the reunion. Rather than try to arrange to get all of the small kids and old adults to an unfamiliar Catholic Church in an unfamiliar town, we celebrated Sunday Mass (for about 50 people) in a large room at the hotel. Was this Mass any less reverent than the TLM? I would say not. Our intentions were humble and contrite, and it was a charitable thing to do for the oldest of the adults. As I recall, even a couple of the hotel staff were able to attend the Mass.


Concerning celebration of the Mass in Latin >>> From my source >>> www.uscatholic.org

Mass was not celebrated in Latin until the 3rd or 4th century AD. The first language of Christian liturgy was Aramaic, the common language of the first Christians, who were Palestinian Jews. If we truly want to be "traditional", should we not be celebrating Mass in Aramaic, instead of Latin. I suspect that there were numerous Catholics (around 400 AD) that were very distressed when the NLM (New Latin Mass)[my acronym] replaced the TAM (Traditional Aramaic Mass)[my acronym]. Somehow the Church survived and thrived that fundamental change.



Concerning the use of organs in church >>> Quoting from this source >>>> www.churchmusic.ca

"In the early Christian churches were no organs used. Christians considered musical instruments of secular nature and not suitable for the church. Following the tradition of the Jewish Synagogue, the only instrument used was the human voice (which is done until today in most Eastern Orthodox churches). Organists in those days could be considered early colleagues of theatre organists."

"The first pipe organs in churches started to appear around the year 800 and 100 years later old manuscripts mention the use of the pipe organ in worship services. Now, in addition to the traditional church choir also instrumental music could be heard in churches. "

Somehow, the Catholics in the early centuries managed to celebrate a reverent Mass without organs.... And apparently organs were originally forbidden because they were considered too secular. Perhaps they should be banned from the TLM?


Just my thoughts.


Ed



LOCKED
Mar 24th 2013 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: (Quote) Gabor-19025 said: ... point I have made is that you are eit...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

Quote:
Gabor-19025 said:

... point I have made is that you are either RIGHT or WRONG and the same goes for me. I also think that just because something is "permissible" does not make it right in God's eyes.


You are making the assumption that God sees everything as a binary option set (right, wrong), and you do not appear to consider the possibility that God might be perfectly happy with more than one possible choice.

God doesn't just look at our external appearance and actions. He knows our innermost thoughts and motivations.

It is do doubt far better in God's eyes to be receiving communion in the hand while wearing tie-dye and blue jeans at a novus ordo Mass where they are playing the music on a banjo, but recieving it with a humble and contrite heart than it is to receive it on the tounge kneeling in a three piece suit at a Tridentine Mass where the music is played on an organ but recieving it with an arrogant and proud heart. In the latter case one is far more at risk of commiting the sin of eating and drinking the body and blood unworthily.

This isn't to say there is a single thing inherently wrong with recieving on the tongue, kneeling, dressing up, or the Tridentine Mass.

A lot of the things that get people all worked up are in the end nothing but arbitary human conventions. Humanity could have just as easily decided that standing on one foot, not bowing, was a sign of respect, or that nodding your head, not extending the middle finger was insulting. God is looking at what we really are trying to do, not the motions we are going through.

I do not personally care to go to Mass in blue jeans, nor would I care to go to one where they are playing the banjo. But I don't delude myself that those are questions of moral right and wrong; they are my preferences.

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Whenever the issue of reverence comes up as a topic there are many circular arguments that can never be resolved using human arguments because none of us can say that we have a direct line to God and His Will. However, my own experience of participation in the modern Church for 45 years in blissful ignorance because I thought that the way it is must be the will of God because it is His Church. I then started to read about the revolution in the Church, the enyclicals of great Popes, the lives of Saints etc and had an enormous change in heart and spirit. That may be considered to be "arrogant" or "elitist". The form of worship I participate in moves me and more and more people are making the move to tradition. One of my greatest regrets is that I did not find this form of worship before my father died and I had him buried in the Modern Church where there is seemingly no Hell or Pergatory and no need to pray for people's souls (a common experience for me and for others I have spoken with).

This morning I was present at a devout Palm Sunday Service. The silent devotion during the blessing of Palms, kneeling to receive the Palms and a kiss as a sign of devotion to Christ was moving and fostered an atmosphere of prayer and an acknowlegement that we are dealing with a non-equal in Christ and we get on our knees for him. During a 5 minute procession to the Church there was not one word uttered and I noticed the young lady in front of me in the procession could barely walk because she had just popped out a child but wanted to walk for Christ rather than to make a hero of herself I presume. When I compare that experience to the Palm Sunday service I attended only a couple of years ago where we were urged to sit down during the reading of the Passion of Christ to maximise our comfort I just felt so privileged to be in a place where Christ was truly honoured today.

Many of the people I know that attend the TLM are very compassionate (they virtually make up 70% of the numbers of 40 Days for Life as an example), generous with there time, the collection plate is overflowing (I used to help with the collection in my former Novus Ordo Church and the plate was light), the numbers are growing and the fruits seem to be positive. Monica also made a good point on this thread that you can actually pray after Mass because people respect the Real Presence of Christ. I am not aware of a local NO Church where this is possible although I accept that they may exist but I have never found such a Church?

This guy has been painted as a heretic and a "bad guy" by the modern Church but read some of the writings of Archbishop Levebvre if you are truly open minded about learning of the alternative views of Catholic tradition. Whether Christ applauds all "personal preferences" is also very debateable. My own brother was fornicating and the first priest he went to happily agreed to celebrate his marriage service without condeming his error in lifestyle. There seems to be absolutely no such thing as error in the modern world, we can all do what we want to and Christ supports it all in his goodness. The alternative view is that Christ the King wants us to honour Him as Our God and Saviour and places demands on us in the way we live and the way we worship.

Does Christ want you to be a Eucharistic Minister, bang a tamborine during Mass, do a touch of liturgical dancing, treat a Church like a meeting place to socialize or does He want you to be solemn and prayerful? All preferences may be equal but there are some who are not willing to take that risk and their preferences are fortunately respected at this point in time although there is some hostility show towards them.










LOCKED
Mar 24th 2013 new

Gabor,


You wrote that "....in the Modern Church where there is seemingly no Hell or Pergatory and no need to pray for people's souls...." Where you got such an idea that the Church teaches that there is no Hell or Purgatory is beyond me. Certainly you should know that the Magisterium has never taught such a thing. Also, the last time I checked, there is only ONE Catholic Church... not a Modern Catholic Church and a Traditional Catholic Church.


As for the rest of your post, it would be rather pointless to respond to your various points. You have made it known (in those paragraphs) that you believe that those (in general) that attend the TLM are more compassionate, more reverent, more generous with their time, more generous with their money, more solemn and more prayerful.... than those (in general) that attend the NO Mass. Gosh I'm sure glad that you didn't include more humble, as your statements certainly don't indicate that.


I guess it is just an odd coincidence or fluke that I regularly attend the NO Mass, but I can still manage to muster the compassion and generosity to volunteer for four hours at my local interfaith food pantry (nearly every Tuesday for the past eight years). With my constant exposure to only the NO Mass, I guess that I should really be a more selfish and less compassionate person. scratchchin faint


Ed


LOCKED
Mar 24th 2013 new
When I feel like singing, I go to the NO mass. The parishes around here are often crowded... and not that that is a bad thing! Seeing many people at mass makes me happy! Crowds though, are not necessarily a good thing for me, so currently I have been attending the more spacious and reflective mass.
LOCKED
Mar 24th 2013 new

Ed,


Please wake up to reality. There are Protestants that are more compassionate than me and you put together. That does not mean that they worship without error. The point I was making is that there are good people that I know who attend the TLM and you are twisting my words again to suit yourself and claim that I believe that only good people attend the TLM- my point was that that people who attend the TLM are not bad people which is very different (ie arrogant, elitist, superior etc). For your information here is an overview of the last NO funeral I attended:


1) "X is now in Heaven" (great assumption-what about purgatory or hell as an option and prayers for his soul?).

2) A bit of a show and sing-along to take away the solemnity of the Mass,

3) The highlight of the Mass was the priest kindly offering to us the option to kneel or sit for the Consecration- what a message?

Also, I can speak with authority about the "inconvenience" it was for a priest to give my father the Last Rights which I believe he never received. It broke my heart. This is my opinion and not Gospel truth but I believe that is part of modernism. If I was where I am at today the priest would have been at the hospital bed within 5 minutes. Yes, this is also a personal opinion but it is based on what I have personally experienced.

We clearly have very different opinions and you have a right to your opinion as much as anybody and I value free speech but I am not going to exchange further messages with you again. Good luck and God's blessings to you.





LOCKED
Mar 24th 2013 new

My apologies for the rather basic spelling errors in my last couple of emails. It is time to log off and have a beer.


When priests would rather play golf than administer the Last Rites it is something that caught my attention in a significant way.

There is plenty of good reading out there for people genuinely open to exploring the history of the Church and her teaching. If you have some time do some reading with a truly open mind.




LOCKED
Mar 24th 2013 new

(Quote) Gabor-19025 said: My apologies for the rather basic spelling errors in my last couple of emails. It is time to log o...
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said:

My apologies for the rather basic spelling errors in my last couple of emails. It is time to log off and have a beer.


When priests would rather play golf than administer the Last Rites it is something that caught my attention in a significant way.

There is plenty of good reading out there for people genuinely open to exploring the history of the Church and her teaching. If you have some time do some reading with a truly open mind.




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A simple question for you. All that is required is a yes or no answer.

Is a Novus Ordo Mass a real Mass?

LOCKED
Mar 24th 2013 new
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said: My apologies for the rather basic spelling errors in my last couple of emails. It is time to log off and have a ...
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said:

My apologies for the rather basic spelling errors in my last couple of emails. It is time to log off and have a beer.


When priests would rather play golf than administer the Last Rites it is something that caught my attention in a significant way.

There is plenty of good reading out there for people genuinely open to exploring the history of the Church and her teaching. If you have some time do some reading with a truly open mind.




--hide--


One of the things I gave up for Lent this year was alcohol so I really hope you had a beer for me too.
LOCKED
Mar 24th 2013 new
Guys, don't you think that this has gone a bit too far? Two seemingly good men arguing a divergent point on a Catholic matching website.

It is Sunday, and Palm Sunday. We are going into Holy Week. I hope everyone can try to get along.
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