(Quote) Monica-730858 said: Latin, in and of itself isn't the point. It's customary to reserve a separate language ...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:
Latin, in and of itself isn't the point. It's customary to reserve a separate language for prayer so it remains sacred, unchanging and so words with double meanings don't creep in. The Holy Family spoke Aramaic and prayed in Hebrew. I never said the NO was invalid or wrong, just that from what I've personally witnessed it isn't as reverent. Again, I admit that I've heard of very reverent NO Masses, I just haven't attended one. I realize that abuses are possible at both but the VAST majority of NO Masses have completely thrown the rubrics out the window. The abuses that happen at TLM are tiny in comparison and it does have something to do with the language spoken. Isn't it wrong for the priest to face the laity if the rubrics clearly state that he is to be ad orientem? Isn't it wrong for their to be altar girls when they are not actually allowed? There are so many of these kinds of things, and how many people at these Masses actually even realize it?
I didn't say anything was a "grave moral sin" but let's be honest... if I truly believe I'm at Calvary am I showing up to worship Our Lord in jeans and a low cut top and flip flops or dressed as modestly as possible? I agree that a person's intent and state of their soul are what's important but that should be obvious when we take more care in how we dress to go to work or someone's wedding then we do to the most important event of our lives, The Holy Sacrifice Of The Mass.
And while it's true that "Christ made no such effort (to be specific about worship) in the New Testament" read what he's told saints time and again about how he feels about the abuses and indifference of how he's treated at Mass. I am willing to admit that I could be wrong about this, but my gut tells me that Saints like St. Teresa, St. Pio, St. Faustina, etc... would be horrified by the way Our Lord is treated and disrespected. The NO is valid, it can be offered perfectly I am sure but I've been Catholic for six years and haven't seen it happen once.
I don't wish to repeat everything that I just said to Gabor, but I will reiterate that you are confusing the people with the Mass when you are talking about abuses. The notion that a NO Mass has to be "perfect" in order to have the same validity as a Tridentine Mass has no basis in fact. I suppose if you also believe that a Tridentine Mass has to be perfect in order to be valid, you might at least be able to claim consistency, but the fact is that they both have the same inherent validity, perfect or not.
They are both liturgical rites promulgated under the authority of the Church, not magical spells where everything has to be done just right or the magic doesn't work.
Yes, it is wrong for the priest to face a direction other than what is specified in the rubrics, but let's not overstate the case. Christ gave authority to the Church to make these decisions. It is wrong for the priest to defy that authority. But this is not the same thing as the claim that it is an inherent moral wrong to face direction X or direction Y. The notion that this has anything whatsoever to do with moral relativism is totally incorrect. If God felt that it was an absolute requirement to face a certain way, He would have told us. So while it is certainly wrong to rebel against the authority of the Church by changing the rubrics because one feels like it, that does not mean that those rubrics are in their every letter an unchangeable moral truth.
By the same token just as it is wrong for a priest to rebel against the authority of the Church by refusing to accept the rubrics, it is wrong for the laity to rebel against the authority of the Church by refusing accept the validity of the Mass. Just as the priest has no right to as an individual decided what is or isn't appropriate when it comes to offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the laity has no right to decided what Mass they are or are not going to deem to be valid. That is the Church's decision to make, not yours or mine. There is nothing wrong with having a preference. If you feel an attraction to the Tridentine, by all means go to it. But there is something completely wrong with disparaging the validity of what the Church has declared valid just because you dislike it.
I don't doubt that you are right that many, if not most, of the saints would be horrified at the way people act at Mass today. But that is the fault of the people, not the Mass. If the Pope got rid of the NO Mass tomorrow, all of those same people would show up at Tridentine masses and act in the exact, same way, dressed the exact, same way. There is no magical force field around the Tridentine Mass that makes people dress up or behave.
And I have no idea where you come up with the notion that the " VAST majority of NO Masses have completely thrown the rubrics out the window." How many different parishes have you really been to in your life? In the diocese where I grew up, there are now 65 parishes. I lived in several different communities and have only been to 20% of them. What percentage of the parishes in your diocese have you been to more than once? Between all of my moves with the military and current job, relatives in different areas, I have been to a bit shy of 3 dozen parishes on something of a regular basis. I'm not even attempting to count the ones where I was traveling, or visiting somebody only once, I'm talking about parishes where I've been there multiple times, enough to get an idea about how they operated. In those not quite three dozen parishes spread over about 8 different dioceses, I can think of 2 that had serious abuses. They've both since been cleaned up (or had as of the last time I had information.) There was a third I can think of that had problems before I ever got there, but were fixed by the time I arrived.
If all you want to do is look for probems and complain, and then label the whole on a very small sample size, I guess you can do so. But it doesn't have a lot to do with reality. If I wanted to, I could pick apart the people and priests at a Tridentime Mass, or a Maronite, or a Byzantine...but what purpose would that really serve?
For what it's worth, I do think the Tridentine does have a more reverent feel to it. But it's not for everybody, and no good comes from disparaging the other option, ESPECIALLY since the fundamental problem that everybody keeps bringing up has NOTHING to do with the Mass itself; it's the people and priests who are responsible. And even then, it's only a minority of both.