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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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03/24/2013 new
(Quote) John-336509 said: It might be a shock for you to learn this, but those who pray the Liturgy of the Hours read the ...
(Quote) John-336509 said:



It might be a shock for you to learn this, but those who pray the Liturgy of the Hours read the following this very morning:



O praise him with sound of trumpet



praise him with lute and harp



Praise him with timbrel and dance



praise him with strings and pipes



Just to be clear, a tambourine and a timbrel pretty much the same sort of thing. Some translations of the Bible actually use the word "tambourine." They are mentioned throughout the psalms (the above is from Psalm 150) as being used to offer praise and worship to the Lord.



So it would appear that God has zero problem with the things.



Which brings us back to people confusing their personal preferences with God's will...



--hide--


There is a time and place for this. We can sing, play instruments and dance all day long. But not at Mass. No where here does it say "praise him with timbrel and dance" during the Holy Sacrifice.
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03/24/2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: Latin, in and of itself isn't the point. It's customary to reserve a separate language ...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

Latin, in and of itself isn't the point. It's customary to reserve a separate language for prayer so it remains sacred, unchanging and so words with double meanings don't creep in. The Holy Family spoke Aramaic and prayed in Hebrew. I never said the NO was invalid or wrong, just that from what I've personally witnessed it isn't as reverent. Again, I admit that I've heard of very reverent NO Masses, I just haven't attended one. I realize that abuses are possible at both but the VAST majority of NO Masses have completely thrown the rubrics out the window. The abuses that happen at TLM are tiny in comparison and it does have something to do with the language spoken. Isn't it wrong for the priest to face the laity if the rubrics clearly state that he is to be ad orientem? Isn't it wrong for their to be altar girls when they are not actually allowed? There are so many of these kinds of things, and how many people at these Masses actually even realize it?

I didn't say anything was a "grave moral sin" but let's be honest... if I truly believe I'm at Calvary am I showing up to worship Our Lord in jeans and a low cut top and flip flops or dressed as modestly as possible? I agree that a person's intent and state of their soul are what's important but that should be obvious when we take more care in how we dress to go to work or someone's wedding then we do to the most important event of our lives, The Holy Sacrifice Of The Mass.

And while it's true that "Christ made no such effort (to be specific about worship) in the New Testament" read what he's told saints time and again about how he feels about the abuses and indifference of how he's treated at Mass. I am willing to admit that I could be wrong about this, but my gut tells me that Saints like St. Teresa, St. Pio, St. Faustina, etc... would be horrified by the way Our Lord is treated and disrespected. The NO is valid, it can be offered perfectly I am sure but I've been Catholic for six years and haven't seen it happen once.
--hide--

I beg to differ. The Vast majority of NO masses has not thrown out or disregarded the rubrics And I have no more basis for saying that as you have for saying they have.

The rubrics for the NO allow the priest to face the people. Doing so is not an abuse of or disregard of the rubrics.

Altar girls are specifically allowed, even though I wish it were otherwise.

And must we again remind you that in the early Church and for most of the church's history; People wore their everyday dress to Church. It is only with the coming of the Industrial revolution and the general increase in wages that allowed people to buy special clothes for special occasions. Even though it would be nice to see people dressed up more to attend Church, it is not essential.

And I cannot beleive that I, as much of a Traditional Catholic as I am with a specific preference for TLO, find myself defending the NO because of what I see as superfluous reasons against it.

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03/24/2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: There is a time and place for this. We can sing, play instruments and dance all day long. But n...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

There is a time and place for this. We can sing, play instruments and dance all day long. But not at Mass. No where here does it say "praise him with timbrel and dance" during the Holy Sacrifice.
--hide--

But it does say so in Scripture, which is John's point.

Whether it is allowed or not is a DISCIPLINE that can be changed at any time for any reason by the Church.

Is Gregorian Chant better suited to the Mass than the insipid hymns used today?

To me, yes!

But even the chant I do hear is an atrocius rendition of it then I am used to. Frustrated opera singers do not make good Chanters. Nor do people who have never been trained to chant do it well.

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03/24/2013 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: But it does say so in Scripture, which is John's point. Whether it is allowed...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



But it does say so in Scripture, which is John's point.



Whether it is allowed or not is a DISCIPLINE that can be changed at any time for any reason by the Church.



Is Gregorian Chant better suited to the Mass than the insipid hymns used today?



To me, yes!



But even the chant I do hear is an atrocius rendition of it then I am used to. Frustrated opera singers do not make good Chanters. Nor do people who have never been trained to chant do it well.

--hide--


Actually, it is an abuse for the priest to face the people for the entire Mass, he is only to do so during these specific times:

1)When giving the opening greeting (GIRM 124).

2)When giving the invitation to pray at the end of the offertory, Pray brethren (GIRM 146).

3)When giving the greeting of peace (GIRM 154).

4) When displaying the Host and Chalice before Communion and saying: Behold the Lamb of God (GIRM 157).

5) When inviting the people to pray before the post communion prayer (GIRM 165).

6)When giving the final blessing (Ordo Missae 141).

I stand corrected about altar girls. It was condemned at one point but I see now that they are allowed. What I've read though is that a great number of Bishops and Priests don't find this favorable as fewer priestly vocations come from altar boys if they start to perceive serving as a girl's job.

I completely understand the points you are making about dress. I personally think we should wear our "Sunday best" but that is just a preference. But even if we were to wear everyday attire to Mass, it shouldn't be immodest, offensive or give scandal to anyone. Mary told the children at Fatima that some fashions would offend Our Lord very much.

I also understand what John was saying but what he posted didn't appear to be specifically speaking of the Mass. Chant was never supposed to be done away with at the new Mass.
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03/24/2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: Latin, in and of itself isn't the point. It's customary to reserve a separate language ...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

Latin, in and of itself isn't the point. It's customary to reserve a separate language for prayer so it remains sacred, unchanging and so words with double meanings don't creep in. The Holy Family spoke Aramaic and prayed in Hebrew. I never said the NO was invalid or wrong, just that from what I've personally witnessed it isn't as reverent. Again, I admit that I've heard of very reverent NO Masses, I just haven't attended one. I realize that abuses are possible at both but the VAST majority of NO Masses have completely thrown the rubrics out the window. The abuses that happen at TLM are tiny in comparison and it does have something to do with the language spoken. Isn't it wrong for the priest to face the laity if the rubrics clearly state that he is to be ad orientem? Isn't it wrong for their to be altar girls when they are not actually allowed? There are so many of these kinds of things, and how many people at these Masses actually even realize it?

I didn't say anything was a "grave moral sin" but let's be honest... if I truly believe I'm at Calvary am I showing up to worship Our Lord in jeans and a low cut top and flip flops or dressed as modestly as possible? I agree that a person's intent and state of their soul are what's important but that should be obvious when we take more care in how we dress to go to work or someone's wedding then we do to the most important event of our lives, The Holy Sacrifice Of The Mass.

And while it's true that "Christ made no such effort (to be specific about worship) in the New Testament" read what he's told saints time and again about how he feels about the abuses and indifference of how he's treated at Mass. I am willing to admit that I could be wrong about this, but my gut tells me that Saints like St. Teresa, St. Pio, St. Faustina, etc... would be horrified by the way Our Lord is treated and disrespected. The NO is valid, it can be offered perfectly I am sure but I've been Catholic for six years and haven't seen it happen once.
--hide--

I don't wish to repeat everything that I just said to Gabor, but I will reiterate that you are confusing the people with the Mass when you are talking about abuses. The notion that a NO Mass has to be "perfect" in order to have the same validity as a Tridentine Mass has no basis in fact. I suppose if you also believe that a Tridentine Mass has to be perfect in order to be valid, you might at least be able to claim consistency, but the fact is that they both have the same inherent validity, perfect or not.

They are both liturgical rites promulgated under the authority of the Church, not magical spells where everything has to be done just right or the magic doesn't work.

Yes, it is wrong for the priest to face a direction other than what is specified in the rubrics, but let's not overstate the case. Christ gave authority to the Church to make these decisions. It is wrong for the priest to defy that authority. But this is not the same thing as the claim that it is an inherent moral wrong to face direction X or direction Y. The notion that this has anything whatsoever to do with moral relativism is totally incorrect. If God felt that it was an absolute requirement to face a certain way, He would have told us. So while it is certainly wrong to rebel against the authority of the Church by changing the rubrics because one feels like it, that does not mean that those rubrics are in their every letter an unchangeable moral truth.

By the same token just as it is wrong for a priest to rebel against the authority of the Church by refusing to accept the rubrics, it is wrong for the laity to rebel against the authority of the Church by refusing accept the validity of the Mass. Just as the priest has no right to as an individual decided what is or isn't appropriate when it comes to offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the laity has no right to decided what Mass they are or are not going to deem to be valid. That is the Church's decision to make, not yours or mine. There is nothing wrong with having a preference. If you feel an attraction to the Tridentine, by all means go to it. But there is something completely wrong with disparaging the validity of what the Church has declared valid just because you dislike it.

I don't doubt that you are right that many, if not most, of the saints would be horrified at the way people act at Mass today. But that is the fault of the people, not the Mass. If the Pope got rid of the NO Mass tomorrow, all of those same people would show up at Tridentine masses and act in the exact, same way, dressed the exact, same way. There is no magical force field around the Tridentine Mass that makes people dress up or behave.

And I have no idea where you come up with the notion that the " VAST majority of NO Masses have completely thrown the rubrics out the window." How many different parishes have you really been to in your life? In the diocese where I grew up, there are now 65 parishes. I lived in several different communities and have only been to 20% of them. What percentage of the parishes in your diocese have you been to more than once? Between all of my moves with the military and current job, relatives in different areas, I have been to a bit shy of 3 dozen parishes on something of a regular basis. I'm not even attempting to count the ones where I was traveling, or visiting somebody only once, I'm talking about parishes where I've been there multiple times, enough to get an idea about how they operated. In those not quite three dozen parishes spread over about 8 different dioceses, I can think of 2 that had serious abuses. They've both since been cleaned up (or had as of the last time I had information.) There was a third I can think of that had problems before I ever got there, but were fixed by the time I arrived.

If all you want to do is look for probems and complain, and then label the whole on a very small sample size, I guess you can do so. But it doesn't have a lot to do with reality. If I wanted to, I could pick apart the people and priests at a Tridentime Mass, or a Maronite, or a Byzantine...but what purpose would that really serve?

For what it's worth, I do think the Tridentine does have a more reverent feel to it. But it's not for everybody, and no good comes from disparaging the other option, ESPECIALLY since the fundamental problem that everybody keeps bringing up has NOTHING to do with the Mass itself; it's the people and priests who are responsible. And even then, it's only a minority of both.

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03/24/2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: There is a time and place for this. We can sing, play instruments and dance all day long. But n...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

There is a time and place for this. We can sing, play instruments and dance all day long. But not at Mass. No where here does it say "praise him with timbrel and dance" during the Holy Sacrifice.
--hide--

No where here does it say anything period about what music is or is not appropriate at the Mass.

No where here does it say that the priests should where vestments.

No where here does it say whether the congregation should receive communion in hand or on the tongue.

You were the one talking about moral relativism and how God represents unchanging truths. The point ihere s that obviously there is nothing inherently offensive to Him about tambourines.

LOCKED
03/24/2013 new
(Quote) John-336509 said: I don't wish to repeat everything that I just said to Gabor, but I will reiterate that you a...
(Quote) John-336509 said:



I don't wish to repeat everything that I just said to Gabor, but I will reiterate that you are confusing the people with the Mass when you are talking about abuses. The notion that a NO Mass has to be "perfect" in order to have the same validity as a Tridentine Mass has no basis in fact. I suppose if you also believe that a Tridentine Mass has to be perfect in order to be valid, you might at least be able to claim consistency, but the fact is that they both have the same inherent validity, perfect or not.



They are both liturgical rites promulgated under the authority of the Church, not magical spells where everything has to be done just right or the magic doesn't work.



Yes, it is wrong for the priest to face a direction other than what is specified in the rubrics, but let's not overstate the case. Christ gave authority to the Church to make these decisions. It is wrong for the priest to defy that authority. But this is not the same thing as the claim that it is an inherent moral wrong to face direction X or direction Y. The notion that this has anything whatsoever to do with moral relativism is totally incorrect. If God felt that it was an absolute requirement to face a certain way, He would have told us. So while it is certainly wrong to rebel against the authority of the Church by changing the rubrics because one feels like it, that does not mean that those rubrics are in their every letter an unchangeable moral truth.



By the same token just as it is wrong for a priest to rebel against the authority of the Church by refusing to accept the rubrics, it is wrong for the laity to rebel against the authority of the Church by refusing accept the validity of the Mass. Just as the priest has no right to as an individual decided what is or isn't appropriate when it comes to offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the laity has no right to decided what Mass they are or are not going to deem to be valid. That is the Church's decision to make, not yours or mine. There is nothing wrong with having a preference. If you feel an attraction to the Tridentine, by all means go to it. But there is something completely wrong with disparaging the validity of what the Church has declared valid just because you dislike it.



I don't doubt that you are right that many, if not most, of the saints would be horrified at the way people act at Mass today. But that is the fault of the people, not the Mass. If the Pope got rid of the NO Mass tomorrow, all of those same people would show up at Tridentine masses and act in the exact, same way, dressed the exact, same way. There is no magical force field around the Tridentine Mass that makes people dress up or behave.



And I have no idea where you come up with the notion that the " VAST majority of NO Masses have completely thrown the rubrics out the window." How many different parishes have you really been to in your life? In the diocese where I grew up, there are now 65 parishes. I lived in several different communities and have only been to 20% of them. What percentage of the parishes in your diocese have you been to more than once? Between all of my moves with the military and current job, relatives in different areas, I have been to a bit shy of 3 dozen parishes on something of a regular basis. I'm not even attempting to count the ones where I was traveling, or visiting somebody only once, I'm talking about parishes where I've been there multiple times, enough to get an idea about how they operated. In those not quite three dozen parishes spread over about 8 different dioceses, I can think of 2 that had serious abuses. They've both since been cleaned up (or had as of the last time I had information.) There was a third I can think of that had problems before I ever got there, but were fixed by the time I arrived.



If all you want to do is look for probems and complain, and then label the whole on a very small sample size, I guess you can do so. But it doesn't have a lot to do with reality. If I wanted to, I could pick apart the people and priests at a Tridentime Mass, or a Maronite, or a Byzantine...but what purpose would that really serve?



For what it's worth, I do think the Tridentine does have a more reverent feel to it. But it's not for everybody, and no good comes from disparaging the other option, ESPECIALLY since the fundamental problem that everybody keeps bringing up has NOTHING to do with the Mass itself; it's the people and priests who are responsible. And even then, it's only a minority of both.

--hide--


I have said at least two, maybe three times now that I believe both forms of the Mass are valid. Please stop suggesting that I have ever said that the NO is invalid. I myself have to attend an NO Mass because I live too far from the TLM and I've never one questioned its validity. I never even alluded to the idea that a Mass has to be perfect to be valid. My point about the priest facing the people instead of God was entirely based on the rubrics and the priests' need to follow the rubrics under obedience. If the rubrics called for the priest to face the laity then that is what should happen. These rules are there for a reason.

And I do apologize, I thought the message you wrote to Gabor was to me. Sorry ; ) I wasn't trying to hijack your conversation. I just get really passionate about these things because I'm trying really hard to move to a place that has an FSSP parish. I've been about a dozen times and I fell in love.
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03/24/2013 new
(Quote) John-336509 said: No where here does it say anything period about what music is or is not appropriate at the Mass....
(Quote) John-336509 said:



No where here does it say anything period about what music is or is not appropriate at the Mass.



No where here does it say that the priests should where vestments.



No where here does it say whether the congregation should receive communion in hand or on the tongue.



You were the one talking about moral relativism and how God represents unchanging truths. The point ihere s that obviously there is nothing inherently offensive to Him about tambourines.

--hide--


I fully understand that God doesn't hate tambourines = ) The new Mass calls for Chant to have "pride of place" and that's all I'm saying. I have never heard Chant at a Mass other than a TLM.
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03/24/2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: I have said at least two, maybe three times now that I believe both forms of the Mass are valid...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

I have said at least two, maybe three times now that I believe both forms of the Mass are valid. Please stop suggesting that I have ever said that the NO is invalid. I myself have to attend an NO Mass because I live too far from the TLM and I've never one questioned its validity. I never even alluded to the idea that a Mass has to be perfect to be valid. My point about the priest facing the people instead of God was entirely based on the rubrics and the priests' need to follow the rubrics under obedience. If the rubrics called for the priest to face the laity then that is what should happen. These rules are there for a reason.

And I do apologize, I thought the message you wrote to Gabor was to me. Sorry ; ) I wasn't trying to hijack your conversation. I just get really passionate about these things because I'm trying really hard to move to a place that has an FSSP parish. I've been about a dozen times and I fell in love.
--hide--

When you wrote:

The NO is valid, it can be offered perfectly I am sure but I've been Catholic for six years and haven't seen it happen once.

I misread it to be:

The NO is valid, IF it can be offered perfectly I am sure but I've been Catholic for six years and haven't seen it happen once.

Sorry about that, my mistake.

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03/24/2013 new
(Quote) John-336509 said: When you wrote: The NO is valid, it can be offered perfectly I am sure but I&...
(Quote) John-336509 said:



When you wrote:



The NO is valid, it can be offered perfectly I am sure but I've been Catholic for six years and haven't seen it happen once.



I misread it to be:



The NO is valid, IF it can be offered perfectly I am sure but I've been Catholic for six years and haven't seen it happen once.



Sorry about that, my mistake.

--hide--


No worries = ) And I like that you are passionate about this stuff too. Some people seem to get really offended in these forums but I love these kinds of debates.
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