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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Mar 24th 2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: No worries = ) And I like that you are passionate about this stuff too. Some people seem to get...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

No worries = ) And I like that you are passionate about this stuff too. Some people seem to get really offended in these forums but I love these kinds of debates.
--hide--

Glad you're not offended!

Judging from you low post count, I'm guessing that you are relatively new. In case you are not aware of it, there are a number of groups out there that do claim the NO Mass to be invalid. Some of them refuse to acknowledge anything about Vatican II. At least one of them is sufficiently schismatic that the Vatican has found it necessary to suspend their faculties and ask the faithful not to attend their Masses. They have a certain amount of support here, which is why you sometimes get such a militant response.

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Mar 24th 2013 new

Monica,


Just concerning the use of Latin and the use of the vernacular language in celebration of the Mass... You may find this article (at bottom of this post) from U.S. Catholic magazine to be interesting.


According to my research (see below the line below).... The first language of Christian liturgy was Aramaic, the common (vernacular) language of the first Christians, As Christianity spread, Mass was celebrated in many (vernacular) languages. Even when Latin was first adopted in the third and fourth centuries AD, it was apparently because Latin began to replace Greek as the common language of the Roman world... so Latin would have been one of their main vernacular languages at that time. By the sixth century, the Roman Canon appeared, completely in Latin. Even though Latin evolved into various modern languages, Latin remained the sole language of the Roman Rite until the Second Vatican Council returned to the original instinct of Christianity that people should worship in a language they understand.


While I see a great value in the Latin language for the Catholic Church and the liturgy, It really seems to me that it has been the intent of the Church to celebrate the Mass in a language that could be understood by the Catholics that were present for the Mass.... No matter what the language (Latin included), it appeared that there was a strong instinct (by the Church) to make the language accessible to the people.


Just my thoughts.


Ed

______________________________________________________

This article was published in the July 2010 issue - Title - When did we start celebrating Mass in Latin?
>>> www.uscatholic.org

These portions were copied from the article.... I have highlighted certain portions that seem to apply to this discussion:


The first language of Christian liturgy was Aramaic, the common language of the first Christians, who were Palestinian Jews. While Hebrew was the language of scripture and formal worship, Christian worship occurred in the home where Aramaic was spoken. The words Abba and maranatha are Aramaic.


Christianity quickly spread from Palestine to the rest of the world, and the Eucharist came to be celebrated in many languages, including Syriac, Coptic, and Armenian. In most of the Mediterranean world, the common language was Greek, which became the language of liturgy in that region and remained so until the early third century.


Eucharist
itself is a Greek word, meaning thanksgiving. The phrase Kyrie eleison and the words liturgy, baptism, evangelize, martyr, and catechumen, among other familiar church words, are also Greek in origin.


From around the third century B.C., what we call “classical” Latin was the language of the Roman aristocracy and the educated classes. Around the time Jesus was born, during the reign of Augustus Caesar, the language began to change. The Roman aristocracy was destroyed by war and political infighting; when they disappeared, their language went with them. Classical Latin was replaced by a less refined version of the language.


In the third and fourth centuries A.D. this form of Latin began to replace Greek as the common language of the Roman world and soon became the language of the liturgy.


Exactly how this change in the liturgy came about is uncertain. In the early church the liturgy was led extemporaneously by the bishop, according to a pattern. There were written examples of Eucharistic Prayers, but they were models, not prescribed prayers. The last such document in Greek was written around the year 215. By the sixth century, the Roman Canon (which is still in use, also called Eucharistic Prayer I) appears, completely in Latin and prescribed for use exactly as written.


What happened during those centuries? It seems that a core of the Roman Canon was developed and used first, probably even in liturgies that were partly in Greek and partly in Latin, until the final Latin version evolved. Because Christians had not used Latin for worship prior to this, words had to be adapted or imported (often from Greek) to express Christian ideas, beginning the development of an ecclesiastical form of Latin. There is also evidence that the Roman Canon was influenced by prayers from the Eastern churches.


Even though Latin evolved into various modern languages, Latin remained the sole language of the Roman Rite until the Second Vatican Council returned to the original instinct of Christianity that people should worship in a language they understand.


This article appeared in the July 2010 issue of
U.S. Catholic (Vol. 75, No. 7, page 46).


__________________________________________________________________



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Mar 24th 2013 new
(Quote) John-336509 said: The objective truth is that the Tridentine Mass did not come into the existance until a millenia...
(Quote) John-336509 said:



The objective truth is that the Tridentine Mass did not come into the existance until a millenia and a half or so after Christ.



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One quibble with this point. Technically speaking, there was no "Tridentine Mass", because the Council of Trent didn't create anything new. They merely codified what already existed in response to liturgical experimentation which was going on as a result of the Protestant Revolt. The "Tridentine Mass" was still very much the same as the Mass which stretched back to at least the fourth century.
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Mar 24th 2013 new

In a Church made up of roughly 1.2 billion human sinners (all clergy included), we can rest assured that the Church will never, ever be completely free of abuses and that it will never, ever achieve perfection in anything that it does.... including the celebration of the Mass. This does not mean that elimination of all abuses and the pursuit of perfection should not be our goal, but with human beings involved we can be certain that it will never be completely achieved..... EVER.... OK, perhaps occasionally by accident, with a lot of hard effort and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.


Ed

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Mar 24th 2013 new

I agree with John.


It is because there are some people out there (among all the 1.2 billion Catholics) that see Vatican II (and anything coming from it) practically as heresy, that discussions can sometimes become heated and/or misunderstood. Certain people or groups have been know to be in opposition to the Vatican or certain Popes. pope


Ed

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Mar 24th 2013 new

(Quote) Charles-512043 said: (Quote) John-336509 said: The objective truth is that ...
(Quote) Charles-512043 said:
Quote:
John-336509 said:



The objective truth is that the Tridentine Mass did not come into the existance until a millenia and a half or so after Christ.






One quibble with this point. Technically speaking, there was no "Tridentine Mass", because the Council of Trent didn't create anything new. They merely codified what already existed in response to liturgical experimentation which was going on as a result of the Protestant Revolt. The "Tridentine Mass" was still very much the same as the Mass which stretched back to at least the fourth century.
--hide--
You are correct Charles. smile

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Mar 24th 2013 new
(Quote) John-336509 said: Glad you're not offended! Judging from you low post count, I'm guessing t...
(Quote) John-336509 said:



Glad you're not offended!



Judging from you low post count, I'm guessing that you are relatively new. In case you are not aware of it, there are a number of groups out there that do claim the NO Mass to be invalid. Some of them refuse to acknowledge anything about Vatican II. At least one of them is sufficiently schismatic that the Vatican has found it necessary to suspend their faculties and ask the faithful not to attend their Masses. They have a certain amount of support here, which is why you sometimes get such a militant response.

--hide--


This is unfortunate and makes me sad. No doubt we can guess who is behind the division. The Catholic Church will always be his target as it's the only institution founded by Christ to conquer sin and save souls. Much prayer and sacrifice is needed to make reparations. I pray that the Mystical Body of Christ will be one as God desires.
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Mar 24th 2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: (Quote) John-336509 said: Glad you're not offended!...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:
Quote:
John-336509 said:



Glad you're not offended!



Judging from you low post count, I'm guessing that you are relatively new. In case you are not aware of it, there are a number of groups out there that do claim the NO Mass to be invalid. Some of them refuse to acknowledge anything about Vatican II. At least one of them is sufficiently schismatic that the Vatican has found it necessary to suspend their faculties and ask the faithful not to attend their Masses. They have a certain amount of support here, which is why you sometimes get such a militant response.




This is unfortunate and makes me sad. No doubt we can guess who is behind the division. The Catholic Church will always be his target as it's the only institution founded by Christ to conquer sin and save souls. Much prayer and sacrifice is needed to make reparations. I pray that the Mystical Body of Christ will be one as God desires.
--hide--
The fact is that most all of the heresies come from the left wing of the Church.The SSPX have never been accused of a any heresy by the Popes.

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Mar 24th 2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: This is unfortunate and makes me sad. No doubt we can guess who is behind the division. The Cat...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

This is unfortunate and makes me sad. No doubt we can guess who is behind the division. The Catholic Church will always be his target as it's the only institution founded by Christ to conquer sin and save souls. Much prayer and sacrifice is needed to make reparations. I pray that the Mystical Body of Christ will be one as God desires.
--hide--


I am a bit of a newbie, especially to these forums and a revert to the Church. I want to thank you guys ( and Monica too) for all of this info I'd never heard before.


I also appreciate the passion for our Church that you all have, and the charity in which that passion was expressed. Thank you again!

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Mar 25th 2013 new

(Quote) Jim-13836 said: I am a bit of a newbie, especially to these forums and a revert to the Church. I want t...
(Quote) Jim-13836 said:


I am a bit of a newbie, especially to these forums and a revert to the Church. I want to thank you guys ( and Monica too) for all of this info I'd never heard before.


I also appreciate the passion for our Church that you all have, and the charity in which that passion was expressed. Thank you again!

--hide--
You can find a latin Mass in your area here Jim.fssp.com

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