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Mar 16th 2013 new

John, I am well-humored by your contradiction.


First you say that it is not relevant to you, then you suggest I have to come up with an explanation as to why the diets of animals changed after the fall of man.


I will have to be content with Our Heavenly Father in heaven....


:)

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Mar 16th 2013 new

left out the word "asking" Our Heavenly Father in heaven...

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Mar 16th 2013 new

(Quote) Elizabeth-730125 said: John, I am well-humored by your contradiction. First you say that it is not relev...
(Quote) Elizabeth-730125 said:

John, I am well-humored by your contradiction.


First you say that it is not relevant to you, then you suggest I have to come up with an explanation as to why the diets of animals changed after the fall of man.


I will have to be content with Our Heavenly Father in heaven....


:)

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wave

It's not really a contradiction; whether you come up with an explanation or not, the fact remains that the Old Testament clearly has humans consuming meat and all scientific evidence clearly proves that Homo Sapiens is an omnivore. Regardless of whether or not the Garden of Edan was a real place or a literary device or whether Adam and Eve were vegetarians at any point in their lives or for their whole lives, the fact remains that humans are omnivores.

The only question is whether your theory that all animals were vegetarian in the Garden of Edan can be reconciled with the undeniable fact that they obviously aren't today. It is a completely academic endeavor that has no impact on the reality of the nature of human diet.

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Mar 17th 2013 new

(Quote) Elizabeth-730125 said: Paul, I am a bit confused by your reference, so let us be clear. The Bible verse...
(Quote) Elizabeth-730125 said:


Paul, I am a bit confused by your reference, so let us be clear. The Bible verse I mentioned was Genesis 1: 29:


"God also said: See, I give you every seed-bearing plant on all the earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit on it to be your food;"


You state that I should read the next verse, which would be Genesis 1:30:


"and to all the wild animals, all the birds of the air, and all the living creatures that crawl on the earth, I give all the green plants for food. And so it happened."


Verse 30 tells us what the other animals were to eat (green plants, by the way).


Perhaps you meant to refer to verse 28 in which man is given dominion over all the animals. Perhaps you want to interpret dominion as "to eat them for food" but if that was God's intent, why not just say so explicitly in verse 29. Thus, I conclude that it is in YOUR post that you are trying to take the Bible verse out of context!!!


And just to remind everyone, this is in Genesis, before Adam and Eve sinned and were driven from the Garden of Eden.

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Keep reading. In Chap 4 you find that Adams children, Caine and Abel. Cain was a farmer, Abel a herdsman.

What need is there for a herdsman if all they are eating are fruits and vegetables.

You can try and argue that a herdsman was needed so they had animals to kill for their hides. But its is not necessary to herd them for that, you just hunt when you need a hide. Well then for milk. But if you properly eat a vegan diet that includes all essentials ingredients you don't need milk. NO adult, per se needs milk, a very young child does, but they get theirs from their mother.

Logically the only reason you raise herds of anything is for all that the anilmals have to offer including their flesh to eat.

As I said, don't pick and choose what you believe may prove your point. The creation story must be viewed as a whole and the main point of the story is that all we have we owe to God, beginning with life itself and world we live in. And to benefit from all that God has given, because we are sinners, we must work for them. It illustrates God's power and might so it also teaches us about God.

Trying to read a biblical approval of a diet into it, is stretching the message to fit a preconceived idea of our own, not God's

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Mar 17th 2013 new

(Quote) Elizabeth-730125 said: Paul, are you priest, thus justifying your consumption of meat by that verse?
(Quote) Elizabeth-730125 said:


Paul, are you priest, thus justifying your consumption of meat by that verse?

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No, if you read the whole account of the rules of sacrifice, only the best of animals are used for sacrifice. Part of the pay for the priests is to consume the meat. But non priests also take part in the consumption of the meat. When you had a bullock sacrificed on your behalf, you got to take some of the meat home to your family. The priests got the best and most parts.

All archaeological data shows that man ate meat, including so-called pre-men (ape men). Remember the Church allows for the belief that man physically as we know it could have gradually evolved from something less. All, it insists on is that we accept the fact that at some point in that evolution, God took a pair of these pre-man primates and instill in that single pair the soul that makes all men in God's image and likeness, and that from that one pair came all men as we know them today.

You may also believe that evolution played absolutely no part and that the creation of man occurred exactly as described in Genesis. Take you pick, as specified (over simplified) either explanation of the creation of man is acceptable.

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Mar 17th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Keep reading. In Chap 4 you find that Adams children, Caine and Abel. Cain was a farmer, ...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Keep reading. In Chap 4 you find that Adams children, Caine and Abel. Cain was a farmer, Abel a herdsman.

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Dear Paul. I do not need for you to put words into my mouth.... I am not denying that man ate meat after being banished from Eden. The point was brought up earlier that before the fall, man did not eat meat. This statement alone came from Genesis 1:29.

As I stated in my earlier posts, I have found that a near vegan diet helps with a chronic digestive health condition I was diagnosed with 20 years ago. I have taken some very serious medicines (by legit doctors' prescriptions) and I have found that a low sugar, vegan diet accomplishes the same results without the nasty side effects and without the longterm risks that high doses of corticosteroids and immunosuppressants pose.

As I have read more and learned more, I do believe there are environmental, psychological, and spriritual consequences to Western society's high animal consumption.....

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Mar 17th 2013 new
"Forks Over Knives" basically showed that diet over 5% with animal-based proteins was not so great for your health. People tend to forget:

1) Plant-based proteins exist

2) Calorie-dense non-animal foods exist

3) Biblical examples of limited animal-based diets

The question also goes to Jesus. Did Jesus make the highest moral use of food possible? We know that Jesus ate fish and likely lamb on occasion.

Bible and Church Quotations (towards moderation or limited meat):

"'Please allow your servants a ten days' trial, during which we are given only vegetables to eat and water to drink. You can then compare our looks with those of the boys who eat the king's food; go by what you see, and treat your servants accordingly.' The man agreed to do what they asked and put them on ten days' trial. When the ten days were over, they looked better and fatter than any of the boys who had eaten their allowance from the royal table; so the guard withdrew their allowance of food and the wine they were to drink, and gave them vegetables. To these four boys God gave knowledge and skill in every aspect of literature and learning; Daniel also had the gift of interpreting every kind of vision and dream." (Daniel 1:12-17) [New Jerusalem Bible]

"The upright has compassion on his animals, but the heart of the wicked is ruthless. " (Proverbs 12:10) [New Jerusalem Bible]

The lion will eat hay like the ox. The infant will play over the den of the adder; the baby will put his hand into the viper's lair. No hurt, no harm will be done on all my holy mountain, for the country will be full of knowledge of Yahweh as the waters cover the sea.'' (Isaiah 11:6-9) [New Jerusalem Bible]

The wolf and the young lamb will feed together, the lion will eat hay like the ox, and dust be the serpent's food. No hurt, no harm will be done on all my holy mountain, Yahweh says. (Isaiah 65:25) [New Jerusalem Bible]

The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity. Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man's dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para #2415)

Animals are God's creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para #2416)

Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?' (Matthew 6:26)

Bless the Lord, you whales and all creatures that move in the waters, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. Bless the Lord, all birds of the air, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever, Bless the Lord, all beasts and cattle, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. (Daniel 3:79-81)

God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image. 198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para #2417)

It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para #2418)

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every bird of the air, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea; into your hand they are delivered. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; and as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. (Genesis 9:1-4)

37. Equally worrying is the ecological question which accompanies the problem of consumerism and which is closely connected to it. In his desire to have and to enjoy rather than to be and to grow, man consumes the resources of the earth and his own life in an excessive and disordered way. At the root of the senseless destruction of the natural environment lies an anthropological error, which unfortunately is widespread in our day. Man, who discovers his capacity to transform and in a certain sense create the world through his own work, forgets that this is always based on God's prior and original gift of the things that are. Man thinks that he can make arbitrary use of the earth, subjecting it without restraint to his will, as though it did not have its own requisites and a prior God-given purpose, which man can indeed develop but must not betray. Instead of carrying out his role as a co-operator with God in the work of creation, man sets himself up in place of God and thus ends up provoking a rebellion on the part of nature, which is more tyrannized than governed by him.76

In all this, one notes first the poverty or narrowness of man's outlook, motivated as he is by a desire to possess things rather than to relate them to the truth, and lacking that disinterested, unselfish and aesthetic attitude that is born of wonder in the presence of being and of the beauty which enables one to see in visible things the message of the invisible God who created them. In this regard, humanity today must be conscious of its duties and obligations towards future generations.

38. In addition to the irrational destruction of the natural environment, we must also mention the more serious destruction of the human environment, something which is by no means receiving the attention it deserves. Although people are rightly worried though much less than they should be about preserving the natural habitats of the various animal species threatened with extinction, because they realize that each of these species makes its particular contribution to the balance of nature in general, too little effort is made to safeguard the moral conditions for an authentic "human ecology". Not only has God given the earth to man, who must use it with respect for the original good purpose for which it was given to him, but man too is God's gift to man. He must therefore respect the natural and moral structure with which he has been endowed. In this context, mention should be made of the serious problems of modern urbanization, of the need for urban planning which is concerned with how people are to live, and of the attention which should be given to a "social ecology" of work.

Man receives from God his essential dignity and with it the capacity to transcend every social order so as to move towards truth and goodness. But he is also conditioned by the social structure in which he lives, by the education he has received and by his environment. These elements can either help or hinder his living in accordance with the truth. The decisions which create a human environment can give rise to specific structures of sin which impede the full realization of those who are in any way oppressed by them. To destroy such structures and replace them with more authentic forms of living in community is a task which demands courage and patience.77

76. Cf. Encyclical Letter Sollicitudo Rei Socialis, 34: loc. cit., 559f.; Message for the 1990 World Day of Peace: AAS 82 (1990), 147-156.

77. Cf. Apostolic Exhortation Reconciliatio et Poenitentia (December 2,1984),16:AAS 77 (1985), 213-217; Pius XI, Encyclical Letter Quadragesimo Anno, III: loc. cit., 219.
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Mar 17th 2013 new

(Quote) Ronald-937125 said: I know of others that don't go a traditional doctor and I am considering it; because...
(Quote) Ronald-937125 said:



I know of others that don't go a traditional doctor and I am considering it; because they really don't cure anything and are only good at prescribing drugs.

If George Malkmus is still active over 100, still working out and preaching, I'm sure that many others will be converted into believing that his diet represents health.

I don't personally know anyone that was cured of cancer by chemo without changing their diet. There is a person that I know right now where I work who is in his 30's, married with children, who is undergoing cancer treatments with chemo. I don't expect him to live if he has faith in our medical community with PhD's

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Knock yourself out mate, the Trauma Bay and Hospital will be there to try to repair the damage, If you havent met or heard of the success of chemotherapy you probably dont work in mainstream healthcare.

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Mar 17th 2013 new

(Quote) Ronald-937125 said: I know of others that don't go a traditional doctor and I am considering it; because...
(Quote) Ronald-937125 said:



I know of others that don't go a traditional doctor and I am considering it; because they really don't cure anything and are only good at prescribing drugs.

If George Malkmus is still active over 100, still working out and preaching, I'm sure that many others will be converted into believing that his diet represents health.

I don't personally know anyone that was cured of cancer by chemo without changing their diet. There is a person that I know right now where I work who is in his 30's, married with children, who is undergoing cancer treatments with chemo. I don't expect him to live if he has faith in our medical community with PhD's

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The diet change is due to the side effects of chemotherapy, but doesnt include veganisms but ensure, complan and other liquid foods such as TPN.

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Mar 17th 2013 new

(Quote) Elizabeth-730125 said: Greetings, Ronald. I believe there is a time and place for most things. If I broke...
(Quote) Elizabeth-730125 said:

Greetings, Ronald.


I believe there is a time and place for most things. If I broke a leg, I would see a doctor. If I needed an appendix removed, I would want to be in a hospital.


However, when it comes to chronic conditions, my personal experience has been that the medicines carry some very weighty risks. For example, I took immunosuppressants for just over a year many many moons ago. I am smarter now and would not do that again for the condition that was being treated when diet alone achieves the same results for me, without the side effects and the risks associated with immunosuppressants.

Your point is well taken.


As Hippocrates stated in about 400 BC: Let food be thy medicine. How long will it take us as a society to learn this lesson??

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Hippocrates used foods because he had no access to modern medicine and pharmokinetics as we do today. Jehova Witness also follow the God princible which is why we have to hve court orders to get proper medicine into their children

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