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03/17/2013 new

(Quote) Ronald-937125 said: Very good Elizabeth, you explained that very well.Rev. George Malkmus also expla...
(Quote) Ronald-937125 said:



Very good Elizabeth, you explained that very well.

Rev. George Malkmus also explains that man wasn't permited to eat meat until Genesis 9:1-5, after the flood.

Of course, it is possible that men ate meat before the flood; men were very evil at that time and that is why God destroyed them...

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The Bible says no such thing. The Bible also says the sun revolves around the earth! and advocates incest. Otherwise how do you explain the children of Cain and Able. BEST NOT TAKE GENISIS LITERALLY as we no it means no such thing.

Only evangelical fundementalist pentecostals believe in the literalness of Genesis. That is the False Phrophets Christ warned us of.

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03/17/2013 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: I am not found of nit-picking the Bible word by word; the practice seems to land the Prot...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

I am not found of nit-picking the Bible word by word; the practice seems to land the Protestants into no end of trouble.

Exactly what Adam and Eve ate in the Garden of Eden is really not terribly relevant to much of anything with a single exception; they ate the one fruit which they had explicitly been forbidden to eat. I will note in passing that it was a forbidden fruit, not a forbidden steak. (I hardly think the fact it was a fruit is a decisive, or even all that important point. I just find it amusing in the context of the discussion.)

From the context of the Bible, including the Book of Genesis, it is abundently clear that there is nothing "unnatural" or unethical about human consumption of meat.

But if we were to accept your argument that the earliest lines of Genesis made everything a herbivore, you would have to come to the conclusion that all of the carnivores and omnivores either were not present at Creation or they radically changed their diet at some point.

Nobody can seriously argue that sharks or wolves or falcons etc. do not naturally consume meat. If you choose to believe that


"and to all the wild animals, all the birds of the air, and all the living creatures that crawl on the earth, I give all the green plants for food. And so it happened."

Verse 30 tells us what the other animals were to eat (green plants, by the way)."

means that before the fall of man they were muching on veggies, you need to come up with some reason why that is not true today.

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Well said sir. Our physiology make it claer that we are omnivores, and need the onmivore diet to be healthy. Doesnt mean you cant be vegan but just there are risks to such action.

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03/17/2013 new

(Quote) Elizabeth-730125 said: Dear Paul. I do not need for you to put words into my mouth.... I am not denying that...
(Quote) Elizabeth-730125 said:



Dear Paul. I do not need for you to put words into my mouth.... I am not denying that man ate meat after being banished from Eden. The point was brought up earlier that before the fall, man did not eat meat. This statement alone came from Genesis 1:29.

As I stated in my earlier posts, I have found that a near vegan diet helps with a chronic digestive health condition I was diagnosed with 20 years ago. I have taken some very serious medicines (by legit doctors' prescriptions) and I have found that a low sugar, vegan diet accomplishes the same results without the nasty side effects and without the longterm risks that high doses of corticosteroids and immunosuppressants pose.

As I have read more and learned more, I do believe there are environmental, psychological, and spriritual consequences to Western society's high animal consumption.....

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A vegan diet may have helped you, but its affect was exactly the opposite with my daughter.

She never had any food allergies until she cut meat out of her diet. Now she is lactose intolerant, gluten intolerant. Cannot eat anything even mildly flavored with onions or garlic. Cannot eat eggs. More than a minimal amount of veggies gives here fierce diarrhea, bloating and stomach pains. The list goes on.

She exits soley on meat and rice with just a little salt and pepper for flavor sometimes with some peas, 3 times a day.

No one here denies that a high consumption of anything is deleterious to health. My first note in this thread said exactly that.

As for the bible, sorry, but the way you read Genesis about diet has nothing to do with reality.

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03/17/2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-624504 said: ... The Bible also says the sun revolves around the earth! and advocates incest. ...
(Quote) Patrick-624504 said:

... The Bible also says the sun revolves around the earth! and advocates incest. ...

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Where in the Bible does it say that the sun advocates incest ? smile

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03/17/2013 new

(Quote) Margo-404841 said: I recently purchased The Kid-Friendly ADHD and Autism Cookbook, 2nd Edition, as a resource for wo...
(Quote) Margo-404841 said:

I recently purchased The Kid-Friendly ADHD and Autism Cookbook, 2nd Edition, as a resource for work (family therapist, work w/young kids & parents) and self (intense extended family history of food allergies/intolerance and autoimmune disorders). Just glanced at the book but want to investigate it more. I plan to use some of the recipes myself. It is written by an MD and a licensd dietician and offers gluten-free, casein free recipes that look fairly accessible.

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My biological half brother was autistic and his mother got all into this fad. He lost a lot of weight on the diet, which was a good thing as he was quite pudgy, however, a good lot of that weight was muscle mass, he also became more withdrawn and less willing to engage.

He then died about a year later from a seizure in his sleep; he was face down, and his mum thinks maybe if he had been a little stronger he could have automatically rolled himself over. But who knows?

I also have a cousin with autism and her parents tried the Autism cook book, and there was no change in her behaviuor, but she lost a lot of weigth on it. So much so her mum got her back on the high process carbs to get her bulked up again cos she was a bit stick thin.

Another autistic kid I know who's parents got him on the diet swear by it. He still behaves the same, and he was always skinny, but they think its got him eating less crud and sleeps better.

Again, this is one of those "to each their own" scenarios.

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03/17/2013 new

(Quote) Kevin-40666 said: Where in the Bible does it say that the sun advocates incest ?
(Quote) Kevin-40666 said:

Where in the Bible does it say that the sun advocates incest ?

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Read between the lines.

Adam and Eve had what, two sons? WHich one of the kids shagged his mum? And then the offspring of that union, who did they shag? Did a daughter of Eve and one of her sons shag the uncle, the father or Adam? Or did God create a few more people. Seems to me God creating Jeff and Sally and Barry and Jane and Hiliary and Steven would be mentioned so the Jews could claim their various family lines back to "the second couple created by God".

Then post "the flood", more incest.

Numbers. You can make six billion people from two people without a bit of "keeping it in the family".

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03/17/2013 new

(Quote) Naomi-698107 said: (Quote) Kevin-40666 said: Where in the Bible does it say that the...
(Quote) Naomi-698107 said:

Quote:
Kevin-40666 said:

Where in the Bible does it say that the sun advocates incest ?


Read between the lines.

Adam and Eve had what, two sons? WHich one of the kids shagged his mum? And then the offspring of that union, who did they shag? Did a daughter of Eve and one of her sons shag the uncle, the father or Adam? Or did God create a few more people. Seems to me God creating Jeff and Sally and Barry and Jane and Hiliary and Steven would be mentioned so the Jews could claim their various family lines back to "the second couple created by God".

Then post "the flood", more incest.

Numbers. You can make six billion people from two people without a bit of "keeping it in the family".

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Interesting, but what does any of that have to do with

the sun advocating incest, as the wording of the earlier

quoted post might lead the imaginative reader to infer ? smile

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03/17/2013 new

(Quote) Robert-3483 said: "Forks Over Knives" basically showed that diet over 5% with animal-based proteins was not so gr...
(Quote) Robert-3483 said: "Forks Over Knives" basically showed that diet over 5% with animal-based proteins was not so great for your health. People tend to forget:

1) Plant-based proteins exist

2) Calorie-dense non-animal foods exist

3) Biblical examples of limited animal-based diets

The question also goes to Jesus. Did Jesus make the highest moral use of food possible? We know that Jesus ate fish and likely lamb on occasion.

Bible and Church Quotations (towards moderation or limited meat):

"'Please allow your servants a ten days' trial, during which we are given only vegetables to eat and water to drink. You can then compare our looks with those of the boys who eat the king's food; go by what you see, and treat your servants accordingly.' The man agreed to do what they asked and put them on ten days' trial. When the ten days were over, they looked better and fatter than any of the boys who had eaten their allowance from the royal table; so the guard withdrew their allowance of food and the wine they were to drink, and gave them vegetables. To these four boys God gave knowledge and skill in every aspect of literature and learning; Daniel also had the gift of interpreting every kind of vision and dream." (Daniel 1:12-17) [New Jerusalem Bible]

"The upright has compassion on his animals, but the heart of the wicked is ruthless. " (Proverbs 12:10) [New Jerusalem Bible]

The lion will eat hay like the ox. The infant will play over the den of the adder; the baby will put his hand into the viper's lair. No hurt, no harm will be done on all my holy mountain, for the country will be full of knowledge of Yahweh as the waters cover the sea.'' (Isaiah 11:6-9) [New Jerusalem Bible]

The wolf and the young lamb will feed together, the lion will eat hay like the ox, and dust be the serpent's food. No hurt, no harm will be done on all my holy mountain, Yahweh says. (Isaiah 65:25) [New Jerusalem Bible]

The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity. Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man's dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para #2415)

Animals are God's creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para #2416)

Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?' (Matthew 6:26)

Bless the Lord, you whales and all creatures that move in the waters, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. Bless the Lord, all birds of the air, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever, Bless the Lord, all beasts and cattle, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. (Daniel 3:79-81)

God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image. 198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para #2417)

It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para #2418)

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every bird of the air, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea; into your hand they are delivered. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; and as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. (Genesis 9:1-4)

37. Equally worrying is the ecological question which accompanies the problem of consumerism and which is closely connected to it. In his desire to have and to enjoy rather than to be and to grow, man consumes the resources of the earth and his own life in an excessive and disordered way. At the root of the senseless destruction of the natural environment lies an anthropological error, which unfortunately is widespread in our day. Man, who discovers his capacity to transform and in a certain sense create the world through his own work, forgets that this is always based on God's prior and original gift of the things that are. Man thinks that he can make arbitrary use of the earth, subjecting it without restraint to his will, as though it did not have its own requisites and a prior God-given purpose, which man can indeed develop but must not betray. Instead of carrying out his role as a co-operator with God in the work of creation, man sets himself up in place of God and thus ends up provoking a rebellion on the part of nature, which is more tyrannized than governed by him.76

In all this, one notes first the poverty or narrowness of man's outlook, motivated as he is by a desire to possess things rather than to relate them to the truth, and lacking that disinterested, unselfish and aesthetic attitude that is born of wonder in the presence of being and of the beauty which enables one to see in visible things the message of the invisible God who created them. In this regard, humanity today must be conscious of its duties and obligations towards future generations.

38. In addition to the irrational destruction of the natural environment, we must also mention the more serious destruction of the human environment, something which is by no means receiving the attention it deserves. Although people are rightly worried though much less than they should be about preserving the natural habitats of the various animal species threatened with extinction, because they realize that each of these species makes its particular contribution to the balance of nature in general, too little effort is made to safeguard the moral conditions for an authentic "human ecology". Not only has God given the earth to man, who must use it with respect for the original good purpose for which it was given to him, but man too is God's gift to man. He must therefore respect the natural and moral structure with which he has been endowed. In this context, mention should be made of the serious problems of modern urbanization, of the need for urban planning which is concerned with how people are to live, and of the attention which should be given to a "social ecology" of work.

Man receives from God his essential dignity and with it the capacity to transcend every social order so as to move towards truth and goodness. But he is also conditioned by the social structure in which he lives, by the education he has received and by his environment. These elements can either help or hinder his living in accordance with the truth. The decisions which create a human environment can give rise to specific structures of sin which impede the full realization of those who are in any way oppressed by them. To destroy such structures and replace them with more authentic forms of living in community is a task which demands courage and patience.77

76. Cf. Encyclical Letter Sollicitudo Rei Socialis, 34: loc. cit., 559f.; Message for the 1990 World Day of Peace: AAS 82 (1990), 147-156.

77. Cf. Apostolic Exhortation Reconciliatio et Poenitentia (December 2,1984),16:AAS 77 (1985), 213-217; Pius XI, Encyclical Letter Quadragesimo Anno, III: loc. cit., 219.
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Are you going to take out of context any more of the Bible and encyclicals or is this it?

The lamb and the lion has nothing to do with diet, but the universal peace and harmony of the world united under the True Church. Daniel 1 12-13 is the penance and sacrifice endured for the knowledge of God given as a gift, while under Babylonian occupation Proverbs 10 is again nothing to do with diet but on personal behaviour.

The Catechism you quote is to illustrate while we have been given dominion over all Gods creation we have a responsibility to use it wisely, to care and nurture it, to hold it in trust. Again nothing to do with food. Try looking at Deuteronomy and Leviticus, but we dont follow Jewish food laws.

What has thou shalt not steal have to do with not eating meat? I dont get that. Unless you are using the Saint James Bible the 7th Commandment is Thou shalt not steal, are you saying we shouldnt steal meat only vegetables?

Catechism of the Catholic Church, para #2416 is about NOT being cruel to animals and Gods creation not that they arent for eating!!!!!

Matthew 6:26 is about not sweating the small things, because we are greater than a bird and God looks after them therefore He will most certainly look after us.

You have so distorted the Churches teaching I refer you to http://www.vatican.va and reread your Catechism

Are you starting a new topic? Social Justice and the ethical use of resources? Because nothing you have written has anything to do with meat eating or vegetarianism

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03/17/2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: A vegan diet may have helped you, but its affect was exactly the opposite with my daughte...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

A vegan diet may have helped you, but its affect was exactly the opposite with my daughter.

She never had any food allergies until she cut meat out of her diet. Now she is lactose intolerant, gluten intolerant. Cannot eat anything even mildly flavored with onions or garlic. Cannot eat eggs. More than a minimal amount of veggies gives here fierce diarrhea, bloating and stomach pains. The list goes on.

She exits soley on meat and rice with just a little salt and pepper for flavor sometimes with some peas, 3 times a day.

No one here denies that a high consumption of anything is deleterious to health. My first note in this thread said exactly that.

As for the bible, sorry, but the way you read Genesis about diet has nothing to do with reality.

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Hense the words Balanced Diet. I agree with you Paul

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03/17/2013 new

(Quote) Kevin-40666 said: Where in the Bible does it say that the sun advocates incest ?
(Quote) Kevin-40666 said:

Where in the Bible does it say that the sun advocates incest ?

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No where. and neither did I. I said dont read Genesis literally .......

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