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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Mar 13th 2013 new

(Quote) Marge-938695 said: I think it's easier to believe that a young foetus is only a "blob of cells" (esp. ...
(Quote) Marge-938695 said:

I think it's easier to believe that a young foetus is only a "blob of cells" (esp. given the misleading stuff one might read on the subject) than to believe that same-sex "marriage" is in any way normal or in concert with nature.

As to contacts here...I will talk to anyone. Maybe I can teach them something.

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A great benefit of science is that it supports the culture of life- it's on our side! Sonograms have convinced many women to change their hearts and minds from going through with an abortion.

Mar 14th 2013 new
(Quote) Naomi-698107 said: I'd talk to someone who's okay with fornication, contraception and redefining marriage to accomodate sa...
(Quote) Naomi-698107 said:

I'd talk to someone who's okay with fornication, contraception and redefining marriage to accomodate same sex couples before I'd ever consider someone who thinks its okay to deprive another human being of a possibe 80 years of life.



Abortion is murder. No ifs, no buts, no maybes. As Catholics, we know better, there's no skirting around the not having full knowledge status when a Catholic supports abortion.



I think the fornicators would have a cooler place in Hell then the people who seek to spill the blood of the innocent.



Frankly, whenver I hear of a Catholic or christians supporting abortion, I vomit a little into my mouth.

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abortion is an absolute no. common sense. its unthinkable.--forgiveable.but unthinkable as a 'rational' choice
Mar 14th 2013 new

Sanctity of life is not just the abortion issue, but from the cradle to the grave and includes as mentioned the Death Penalty, Euthanasia, etc. It is also arguable and I agree that it includes such things as defense of the poor, service to the poor and the ill, etc.

For a sin to be mortal three things are required: Grave Offense, Full Knowledge and Full will. There are many who will fail to meet these three conditions due to lack of understanding, lack of education, lack of power, etc.

Emotions often cloud people's judgment in situations dealing with these issues. I am not saying it excuses them in their entirety but this is where the pastoral element must become active, this is why we have such programs as Rachel's Vineyard for those recovering from having an abortion or having participated in them.

While abortion is often argued as "its just a blob", "their life would be ruined", "my parents would kill me", "my boyfriend would leave me" etc, these are considerations that affect a person's ability to reason out their decision and truly understand the ramifications of the act.

Additionally, Capital punishment is easily upheld in an emotional manner because people want revenge, or the perpetrator forfeited their right to life when they took another, etc Doesn't matter, when we execute we remove all chance for redemption, take revenge into our own hands, etc The Church acknowledges the right of the State or Government to utilize capital punishment if it is necessary to protect society, but that with the technology available today there are very few instances when this would be the case, because the perpetrator and society can be sufficiently removed from one another.

Euthanasia is again emotional "I don't want them to suffer", its cruel to make them go through cancer, Lou Gehrigs, MS, Clinical Depression, being brain damaged etc etc. It is through a misguided effort to love that this one takes control. Having lived through the loss of several family members and friends to long term illnesses and also have faced the sudden and unexpected loss of my husband Pete, I can honestly say that those days, even the hard ones with my family members and friends suffering from long term illness were gifts beyond measure, times when all pretense could be stripped away and a true exchange of information and love was possible.

It is good to have the strong guidelines that we do regarding these issues, but we must also keep in mind that for many these times are also confusing, fearful and emotional times which may override what they know or have been taught and for this pastoral love and concern is necessary. Marking no to the sanctity of life question would indicate for me a topic or several actually for discussion and a path through which perhaps I will be the vehicle for a truer understanding of the teaching.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said:....many Catholic women maintain that abortion would be wrong for them, but they are not going to impose th...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:....many Catholic women maintain that abortion would be wrong for them, but they are not going to impose their beliefs upon other women.
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I think there is a certain amount of fear of being seen as a traitor to feminism.

Why the rights of women must include the right to do away with one's child (and endanger one's own physical and mental health) I will never know.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Lauren-927923 said:Marking no to the sanctity of life question would indicate for me a topic or several actually for discus...
(Quote) Lauren-927923 said:Marking no to the sanctity of life question would indicate for me a topic or several actually for discussion and a path through which perhaps I will be the vehicle for a truer understanding of the teaching.
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Bow Bow Bow

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Stephanie-450440 said: I find it interesting in the pro-life community the number of people that will rightly and pa...
(Quote) Stephanie-450440 said:

I find it interesting in the pro-life community the number of people that will rightly and passionately fight for the unborn, but are for the death penalty.

I understand it's easier to stand up for the truly innocent but we also need to stand up for the broken sinners. While our society may have laws to keep us safe by using judge and jury, we should not be supporting the executioner.

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The Catechism allows for the state to retain its right to use the death penalty. However, this should only come if the society cannot safely contain the criminal, such as in underdeveloped countries where the criminal is liable to escape (CCC, 2267). In other words, the western world probably doesnt need it because they can contain the criminal. In the traditional view, held by Aquinas, he believed allowing the evil doer to live was frivilous. He asked why would a sinner repent if he had not done so even in the face of death? Killing for the common good of society is not a sin....nor is favoring the dealth penalty in certain circumstances a violation of conscience.


However, murder of innocent life, such as unborn children, is not acceptable in any case.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Lauren-927923 said: Sanctity of life is not just the abortion issue, but from the cradle to the grave and includes a...
(Quote) Lauren-927923 said:

Sanctity of life is not just the abortion issue, but from the cradle to the grave and includes as mentioned the Death Penalty, Euthanasia, etc. It is also arguable and I agree that it includes such things as defense of the poor, service to the poor and the ill, etc.

For a sin to be mortal three things are required: Grave Offense, Full Knowledge and Full will. There are many who will fail to meet these three conditions due to lack of understanding, lack of education, lack of power, etc.

Emotions often cloud people's judgment in situations dealing with these issues. I am not saying it excuses them in their entirety but this is where the pastoral element must become active, this is why we have such programs as Rachel's Vineyard for those recovering from having an abortion or having participated in them.

While abortion is often argued as "its just a blob", "their life would be ruined", "my parents would kill me", "my boyfriend would leave me" etc, these are considerations that affect a person's ability to reason out their decision and truly understand the ramifications of the act.

Additionally, Capital punishment is easily upheld in an emotional manner because people want revenge, or the perpetrator forfeited their right to life when they took another, etc Doesn't matter, when we execute we remove all chance for redemption, take revenge into our own hands, etc The Church acknowledges the right of the State or Government to utilize capital punishment if it is necessary to protect society, but that with the technology available today there are very few instances when this would be the case, because the perpetrator and society can be sufficiently removed from one another.

Euthanasia is again emotional "I don't want them to suffer", its cruel to make them go through cancer, Lou Gehrigs, MS, Clinical Depression, being brain damaged etc etc. It is through a misguided effort to love that this one takes control. Having lived through the loss of several family members and friends to long term illnesses and also have faced the sudden and unexpected loss of my husband Pete, I can honestly say that those days, even the hard ones with my family members and friends suffering from long term illness were gifts beyond measure, times when all pretense could be stripped away and a true exchange of information and love was possible.

It is good to have the strong guidelines that we do regarding these issues, but we must also keep in mind that for many these times are also confusing, fearful and emotional times which may override what they know or have been taught and for this pastoral love and concern is necessary. Marking no to the sanctity of life question would indicate for me a topic or several actually for discussion and a path through which perhaps I will be the vehicle for a truer understanding of the teaching.

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Thanks for your extended views about these critical issues, Lauren. In some cases I would place more guilt upon the people involved in the actual abortion process (doctors, nurses, clinic operators as primary examples). They are in a position to know better.

Also the right-to-life (sanctity) is not limited to abortion. As you point out, all forms of human life are to be respected from womb to tomb.

As far as the abortion issue is concerned, a common argument against pro-lifers is that they are concerned only with the embryos and fetuse (the unborn). They lodge complaints against pro-lifers claiming there is a lack of support (emotional and financial) once a child is born. While more could be done in this area, it's not a true picture that's painted. There ARE pregnancy centers in most metropolitan areas -- they are supported by means of private funding (versus government funds). Support is more often there than not -- a person just has to look.

Rachel's Vineyard also exists to assist women who have undergone an abortion and are suffering afterward. The fact that such support is needed points out a fallacy about having an abortion to solve a woman's problems. Not so.

Capital punishment is another area of concern. It seems vengeance tops the list for allowing it. The difference is that capital punishment is, at least in theory, allowed to punish those guilty of extreme crimes. Comparing the taking of innocent life versus one guilty of extreme crimes is an arguing point that is used. The Church allows this right to countries and states; however, it was JPII who spoke out against it, although the official Church position, while it's been influenced, hasn't been officially changed. I've waffled back & forth on this issue in the past with the final resolution that the death penalty should be abolished. It does not solve the problems for which it was intended. Also, seeing at the grass roots level how the justice system works, I believe that a lot of innocent people have been executed.

Other issues you point out rank high in importance and concern.

The main point is that sanctity of life isn't limited to the innocent unborn.

Mar 14th 2013 new

Regarding the sanctity of life concerning end of life decisions, I will point out that the Church recognizes that medical technology has reached the point of Frankenstein whereby machines can continue a persons vital signs, in the absence of all other signs of human life and consciousness; and with the knowledge that natural life and consciousness are NO LONGER attainable for this person. In such cases the Church does differentiate between ordinary and extraordinary means in preserving life. Ordinary means is standard routine treatment that promotes comfort and dignity to the patient and includes pain meds to relieve suffering even if it hastens death - we are not in the business of suffering! That said, withholding ordinary means at this stage is euthanasia and is not morally acceptable. Extraordinary means, such as described earlier (kept "alive" by machines with no chance of recovery), attempts to thawt God's will by prolonging natural death. It is reasonable in such cases to withhold extraordinary means and to let natural death take its course. Each case is different, and prayerful consideration and consultation with trusted clergy is important.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Sam-948516 said: Killing for the common good of society is not a sin....
(Quote) Sam-948516 said: Killing for the common good of society is not a sin....
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I'm sure millions of Jews who were killed by a society following a group making decisions for the "common good of their society" would disagree with that statement .


In our 21st century America, I cannot think of any circumstance that would support killing a man for the "common good of society" and as I stated earlier, I doubt Jesus would either.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Stephanie-450440 said: I'm sure millions of Jews who were killed by a society following a group mak...
(Quote) Stephanie-450440 said:


I'm sure millions of Jews who were killed by a society following a group making decisions for the "common good of their society" would disagree with that statement .


In our 21st century America, I cannot think of any circumstance that would support killing a man for the "common good of society" and as I stated earlier, I doubt Jesus would either.

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I can't speak for Sam but considering the context of his wording, I'm of the opinion he was referring to the legal system's death penalty, and not indiscriminate mass murders or genocides perpetrated by 3rd world governments or those in other areas.

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