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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Joseph-750000 said: Regarding the sanctity of life concerning end of life decisions, I will point out that the Churc...
(Quote) Joseph-750000 said:

Regarding the sanctity of life concerning end of life decisions, I will point out that the Church recognizes that medical technology has reached the point of Frankenstein whereby machines can continue a persons vital signs, in the absence of all other signs of human life and consciousness; and with the knowledge that natural life and consciousness are NO LONGER attainable for this person. In such cases the Church does differentiate between ordinary and extraordinary means in preserving life. Ordinary means is standard routine treatment that promotes comfort and dignity to the patient and includes pain meds to relieve suffering even if it hastens death - we are not in the business of suffering! That said, withholding ordinary means at this stage is euthanasia and is not morally acceptable. Extraordinary means, such as described earlier (kept "alive" by machines with no chance of recovery), attempts to thawt God's will by prolonging natural death. It is reasonable in such cases to withhold extraordinary means and to let natural death take its course. Each case is different, and prayerful consideration and consultation with trusted clergy is important.

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Yes, Joseph, there is a time to allow "nature to take its course". As you pointed out, end of life issues involve ordinary versus extraordinary means of sustaining life. Sometimes determining the correct category varies by circumstances, and each case has to be evaluated individually. There is a considerable amount of information about end of life issues available from Catholic sources. Allowing the inevitable without interfering or rushing the process is for the most part allowable and in conformance with Caholic teaching. The principles of the sanctity of life are not violated in those situations.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Sam-948516 said: The Catechism allows for the state to retain its right to use the death penal...
(Quote) Sam-948516 said:


The Catechism allows for the state to retain its right to use the death penalty. However, this should only come if the society cannot safely contain the criminal, such as in underdeveloped countries where the criminal is liable to escape (CCC, 2267). In other words, the western world probably doesnt need it because they can contain the criminal. In the traditional view, held by Aquinas, he believed allowing the evil doer to live was frivilous. He asked why would a sinner repent if he had not done so even in the face of death? Killing for the common good of society is not a sin....nor is favoring the dealth penalty in certain circumstances a violation of conscience.


However, murder of innocent life, such as unborn children, is not acceptable in any case.

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Imposing the death penalty is more complex than just the escape issue. There are other factors of importance to be weighed. In reality though, we are finding that innocent people are on death row. Also, it's been discovered that there have been incidents where innocent people were executed. The legal system involves political factors, prosecutors' ambitions and other fallible factors. It is far from a perfect system and innocent people have been railroaded. There are too many inequities to be considered absolutely fair.

While the Church allows the individual government units to carry out the death penalty, the thinking has been changing, particularly by Pope John Paul II who discouraged it.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said:Capital punishment is another area of concern. It seems vengeance tops the list for allowing it.
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:Capital punishment is another area of concern. It seems vengeance tops the list for allowing it.
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This bothers me greatly -- and not just the death penalty, but even life imprisonment. I see in my area case after case of a very young person getting life in prison even when it seems obvious that there's something psychologically wrong with them. Sadly, the victim's family's always seem more bloodthirsty than ever the perpetrator was.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said: Yes, Joseph, there is a time to allow "nature to take its course". As you pointed out, end of life...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

Yes, Joseph, there is a time to allow "nature to take its course". As you pointed out, end of life issues involve ordinary versus extraordinary means of sustaining life. Sometimes determining the correct category varies by circumstances, and each case has to be evaluated individually. There is a considerable amount of information about end of life issues available from Catholic sources. Allowing the inevitable without interfering or rushing the process is for the most part allowable and in conformance with Caholic teaching. The principles of the sanctity of life are not violated in those situations.

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At our parish we regularly - every year or two - hold a workshop regarding end of life issues. My post contains excerpts  from the materials provided. The workshop stresses the importance of making family members aware of how you want things handled BEFORE finding ones self in dire straits and unable to communicate to medical personnel their wishes. Additionally, in RI one must specifically ask for visits from a priest in a hospital (they are no longer allowed to visit without this personal request) which could be an issue to many families regarding last rites etc.... another sad reality of our secular PC society.

Mar 14th 2013 new

Mother Teresa of calcutta reminds us that abortion is great destoryer of peace. Boy ,was she right. She even made the Clinton Administration look like deer caught in the headlights. It's a shame that Catholics call themselves christian but accept pre-marital sex, abortion, and homosexual marriage. That is like having ketchup with your pasta... it doesn't go together.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Marge-938695 said: This bothers me greatly -- and not just the death penalty, but even life imprisonment. I see in m...
(Quote) Marge-938695 said:

This bothers me greatly -- and not just the death penalty, but even life imprisonment. I see in my area case after case of a very young person getting life in prison even when it seems obvious that there's something psychologically wrong with them. Sadly, the victim's family's always seem more bloodthirsty than ever the perpetrator was.

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It should bother you -- and the rest of us. It's another example of injustices commited by the legal system. While it may be the best the world has to offer, it is still nevertheless, flawed. Reasonable efforts should be made to determine if the alleged perpetrator is able to understand the difference between right and wrong. A competent defense attorney should be requesting a psychological examination where mental incapacity might be an issue.

There are efforts, haphazard for now, to improve the quality of mental health care in the US. Perhaps this will bring increased awareness of the problems and a better understanding of how to deal with them.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said: Imposing the death penalty is more complex than just the escape issue. There are other factors of i...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

Imposing the death penalty is more complex than just the escape issue. There are other factors of importance to be weighed. In reality though, we are finding that innocent people are on death row. Also, it's been discovered that there have been incidents where innocent people were executed. The legal system involves political factors, prosecutors' ambitions and other fallible factors. It is far from a perfect system and innocent people have been railroaded. There are too many inequities to be considered absolutely fair.

While the Church allows the individual government units to carry out the death penalty, the thinking has been changing, particularly by Pope John Paul II who discouraged it.

--hide--


Ray

My point was that the death penalty is not morally binding on the consciences of Catholics to the extent that abortion is. JPII has been changing it because there is less need for it particularly for the reasons I mentioned. I was also showing St. Thomas view as a comparison to JPII and the new teaching.


We should also try not to forget that the mosaic law imposed the death penalty quite a bit for religious reasons and heresy. I am simply showing that it is not binding on the conscience of Catholics like abortion, and that it is still open for Catholics to choose on this issue. Personally, I am with St. Thomas...if the person wont repent in the face of death, and if they are a menance to society, and if by their execution the common good would be preserved, then yes I would say go ahead. But in today's developed world, the meeting of all of these conditions is rare...which is the point JPII was making, so in that sense you can do away with it.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Marge-938695 said: I think there is a certain amount of fear of being seen as a traitor to feminism. Why the rights of wome...
(Quote) Marge-938695 said: I think there is a certain amount of fear of being seen as a traitor to feminism. Why the rights of women must include the right to do away with one's child (and endanger one's own physical and mental health) I will never know.
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Bow Bow Bow

Mar 14th 2013 new

Wow. Lots of good posts he re. Yes I do have a few "no's" on my list, but because of what I've been reading here over the l past few weeks I'm rethinking. I don't however have a no to sanctity of life. And , again, because of what I'm reading here, my anti abortion stance is stronger than ever.

I have been "away" and have oscillated between pro/con death penalty. Its hard to not sometimes be pro.. especially after an incident like Newtown. I have also at times felt abortion should not be illegal. I know different now.

This Issue I do still struggle with is end of life. I'm glad to see some posts here re: that. I think it cruel that modern medicine can keep a person going way past quality of life. Just because we can... should we? I work in veterinary medicine. ...and we don't let dogs suffer the way some humans have to ( I worked in a human hospital for 7 years).


Thanks for the education. Blessings

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Joseph-750000 said: Regarding the sanctity of life concerning end of life decisions, I will point out that the Churc...
(Quote) Joseph-750000 said:

Regarding the sanctity of life concerning end of life decisions, I will point out that the Church recognizes that medical technology has reached the point of Frankenstein whereby machines can continue a persons vital signs, in the absence of all other signs of human life and consciousness; and with the knowledge that natural life and consciousness are NO LONGER attainable for this person. In such cases the Church does differentiate between ordinary and extraordinary means in preserving life. Ordinary means is standard routine treatment that promotes comfort and dignity to the patient and includes pain meds to relieve suffering even if it hastens death - we are not in the business of suffering! That said, withholding ordinary means at this stage is euthanasia and is not morally acceptable. Extraordinary means, such as described earlier (kept "alive" by machines with no chance of recovery), attempts to thawt God's will by prolonging natural death. It is reasonable in such cases to withhold extraordinary means and to let natural death take its course. Each case is different, and prayerful consideration and consultation with trusted clergy is important.

--hide--

Right Joseph, thank you for posting that so beautifully.

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