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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Mar 14th 2013 new

Hi Ray,

I've struggled with this one for years. But, have finally come to peace with it I believe. In my conscience the only time I can see a necessity for this might be serial killers. The legal system is incredibly flawed, especially in relation to punishments fitting the crimes. As more and more evidence comes forward we know that serial killers will kill again, we know that rapists will rape again and we know that molesters will molest again. They cannot be cured and finally the mental health profession is accepting this stance. For a very long time, they believed that rapists and molesters could be treated and cured, they know this is not the case now. Serial killers likewise cannot be cured. Please note in regard to rape I am not talking about the 18 or 20 year old boy convicted of statutory rape. This is an area where the laws are incongruent with the crimes. A boy flashing through the stadium in a steak can be charged with lewd behavior and have to register as a sex offender in many states. A girl can take a photo of herself naked and send it to a boy or boys without their permission or request and he can be charged under pornography laws another sex offense, if he shares it with his buddies, he can be charged with distributing it and if the girl is underage tack on child pornography (we had such a situation more than one actually among the high schoolers in one of our little towns a few years back) In these cases the entire thing is out of whack. Then you get someone who actually is a serial rapist serving 18 months coming out and raping again, because in many places the laws have not been changed in a hundred years.

On the whole however the death penalty requires serious consideration for multiple reasons -- the potential innocence of the person, the ability to protect society in other non-lethal ways, etc.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Sam-948516 said: Ray My point was that the death penalty is not morally bindin...
(Quote) Sam-948516 said:


Ray

My point was that the death penalty is not morally binding on the consciences of Catholics to the extent that abortion is. JPII has been changing it because there is less need for it particularly for the reasons I mentioned. I was also showing St. Thomas view as a comparison to JPII and the new teaching.


We should also try not to forget that the mosaic law imposed the death penalty quite a bit for religious reasons and heresy. I am simply showing that it is not binding on the conscience of Catholics like abortion, and that it is still open for Catholics to choose on this issue. Personally, I am with St. Thomas...if the person wont repent in the face of death, and if they are a menance to society, and if by their execution the common good would be preserved, then yes I would say go ahead. But in today's developed world, the meeting of all of these conditions is rare...which is the point JPII was making, so in that sense you can do away with it.

--hide--
It's true that sometimes even the most hardened of criminals won't repent publicly (some probably even privately). There are those who can't repent, however, because they are innocent in the first place. Additional investigations, along with DNA testing, confessions by others and so on have proven this.

In our present day world, people won't publicly admit to wrongdoing because of the appeal processes which can take years. Even a guilty person can stretch out the time he/she remains on earth.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Marge-938695 said: This is a loaded question.1. It's the 5th Commandment, not the 6th. 2. "...
(Quote) Marge-938695 said:

This is a loaded question.

1. It's the 5th Commandment, not the 6th.

2. "Sanctity of life" includes questions of capital punishment, use of deadly force, end of life decisions -- not just abortion. Certainly, direct action to end the life of another must be avoided, in so far as is possible. Beyond that....there are many grey areas, many unique twists to an individual situation that make a one-size-fits-all answer difficult, if not impossible.

3. On CM many people answer "no" to the questions because
a) they don't really understand them, or
b) they have not followed the Church's teachings in the past.

I say, leave the door open. Your acceptance and example may bring someone closer to God.

--hide--



I normally agree with you an enjoy your posts, but I have to disagree with you on this one. There is NOT moral equivalent of military force and capital punishment to abortion. Abortion is the intention killing of the innocent. Capital punishment is the intentional killing of the guility. Military force (putting aside Obama's questionable drone program), atleast as far as the US is concerned, is the intentional killin of the guility as well.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Naomi-698107 said: I think that's what makes it especially annoying. Its 2013. People have access to te...
(Quote) Naomi-698107 said:

I think that's what makes it especially annoying. Its 2013. People have access to technologies and information that was the stuff of sci-fi back in the 70s. To hold to the beleif that the foetus is a blob of cells really is the height of ignorance when you can Google the images.

Therefore, I think two conclusions can be drawn from this:

1. People are too lazy and comfortable within their ignorance to do the research.

2. People use the term "blob", "conceptus" "tissue mass" whatever, to reflect that they have dehumanised the human being within the uterus. More and pro-aborts are going down more metaphysical and philosophical reasonsings now, the "blob of tissue" doesn't fly in the face of google, but "it may be human tissue, it may even look tissue, but its not a person".

That's how you know they're blatantly wrong, because of the changing of their argument. As soon as science/philosphy destorys their starting point, they move onto some other assinine commentary. First they argued that they couldn't know what it was, then it was "blob" then it was sentience that determined it, and pain and sapience, and now its personhood, which is starting to loose water.

Of course, they'll always resort back to the default setting "well, it doesn't matter if its a sentient human being, its in my body I can have it out". Then they'll tell us about the world famous violnist. That makes me smile.

I feel sorry for them, though. It must be a strange feeling to support the killing of human beings. I mean, if I'm wrong, who cares, I peeved off a lot of people, I don't think any deity/God is going to condemn me for a pro-life stance... but if the pro-abortion crowd are wrong. That's a lot of blood to have on a conscience.

--hide--
Well, Naomi...they aren't wrong. Embryos are a blob of cells, but then again SO ARE WE. We are all made up of cells and are ever changing. For instance the blob of cells that we are when we are 6 doesn't look like the blob of cells that we are at 60. A little education for that bold lie goes a long way.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Marge-938695 said: (Quote) Ray-566531 said:Capital punishment is another area of concern. It seems v...
(Quote) Marge-938695 said:

Quote:
Ray-566531 said:Capital punishment is another area of concern. It seems vengeance tops the list for allowing it.

This bothers me greatly -- and not just the death penalty, but even life imprisonment. I see in my area case after case of a very young person getting life in prison even when it seems obvious that there's something psychologically wrong with them. Sadly, the victim's family's always seem more bloodthirsty than ever the perpetrator was.

--hide--
Boy, that confuses me...so the victim's family...the one who loss their loved one or who suffered rape or beatings or who watched their loved ones cut up and tortured seem "bloodthirsty" for revenge... I wonder why?

I'm sorry, but liberals who can't sympathize with the victims but sympathize with the perpetrators confuse me. You can love the perpetrator to the end but that doesn't mean you accept his behavior or allow it to continue and everyone dies sooner or later so a perpetrator facing death on death row can certainly repent...indeed, may even repent when faced with the fact that he really is going to die...though I doubt they will repent in this life as someone said earlier certain people (rapist, abusers, serial killers) don't change in this life. And victims will learn to forgive eventually for their own souls' sakes, but that will be in their own time and that we can atleast give them.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Cheryl-409772 said: (Quote) Marge-938695 said: (Quote) Ray-566531 said:Capita...
(Quote) Cheryl-409772 said:

Quote:
Marge-938695 said:

Quote:
Ray-566531 said:Capital punishment is another area of concern. It seems vengeance tops the list for allowing it.

This bothers me greatly -- and not just the death penalty, but even life imprisonment. I see in my area case after case of a very young person getting life in prison even when it seems obvious that there's something psychologically wrong with them. Sadly, the victim's family's always seem more bloodthirsty than ever the perpetrator was.


Boy, that confuses me...so the victim's family...the one who loss their loved one or who suffered rape or beatings or who watched their loved ones cut up and tortured seem "bloodthirsty" for revenge... I wonder why?

I'm sorry, but liberals who can't sympathize with the victims but sympathize with the perpetrators confuse me. You can love the perpetrator to the end but that doesn't mean you accept his behavior or allow it to continue and everyone dies sooner or later so a perpetrator facing death on death row can certainly repent...indeed, may even repent when faced with the fact that he really is going to die...though I doubt they will repent in this life as someone said earlier certain people (rapist, abusers, serial killers) don't change in this life. And victims will learn to forgive eventually for their own souls' sakes, but that will be in their own time and that we can atleast give them.

--hide--
...actually, I think we should just turn jails into Holiday Inns and let murderers, etc. live there forever and ever, amen. rolling eyes Just don't let them out. This way no one will be afraid to go to jail, so all this crime can keep increasing, but hey, at least they won't get out and do it again.

Mar 14th 2013 new

All very true. BUT - the original poster said, "It is your obligation as a Catholic to protect all forms that protect life!"

I think it's not enough to think that pro-life=anti-abortion We need to go beyond that, and examine the questions of capital punishment, justifiable force, and end-of-life decisions.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Susan-940526 said: I work in veterinary medicine. ...and we don't let dogs suffer the way some humans have to ( I worke...
(Quote) Susan-940526 said: I work in veterinary medicine. ...and we don't let dogs suffer the way some humans have to ( I worked in a human hospital for 7 years).
--hide--
But a dog is merely a creature. Man is a being.

Mar 14th 2013 new

I think perhaps something missing in this discussion is the fact that the sanctity of life is unconditional, it doesn't matter if one is an innocent life or a guilty life, only that it is a life created in the Image of God, the person may have separated themselves from God by their actions, but God does not give up on them and He does not stop loving them. That's what we are called to do, hold all life in esteem, perhaps in some way it is even more important to hold those who have trailed so far from God, because they have the most need of God's love and mercy.

Another important point is that it is very very hard to do this sometimes. it isn't about feeling or not feeling sympathy for those who have suffered at the hands of another. Of course people who love feel their pain and perhaps even understand their need for vengeance, but that is God's domain not ours, and it is very hard to relinquish that desire for payback, but we are called to give it up anyway.

And, there are justifications which mitigate the severity of the taking of life, even allow for it -- justifications for some war, for the protection of one's own life or the lives of others.

I don't think this is an issue that is dichotomous between liberals and conservatives either, its a human issue(s), human experiences and part of the call to follow the difficult path. We are not called to an easy life.

Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said:... each case has to be evaluated individually.
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:... each case has to be evaluated individually.
--hide--
Very true for end-of-life, and probably for capital punishment. But I don't think we'd say the same for abortion...and I'm not sure about deadly force.

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