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Discussion related to living as a Catholic in the single state of life. As long as a topic is being discussed from the perspective of a single Catholic then it will be on-topic.

Tobias and Sarah's story is from the Book of Tobit, and his journey is guided by Saint Raphael.
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Mar 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Pat-5351 said: Chelsea, that is interesting, I totally agree, but add that I was just doing some in depth reading on...
(Quote) Pat-5351 said:

Chelsea, that is interesting, I totally agree, but add that I was just doing some in depth reading on excommunication, and the concept is that once baptized a Catholic, you are a Catholic, no matter how recalcitrant or obstinately opposing you might be. Untiil you are excommunicated (or seek to excommunicate yourself, through request or deed), you are "one of us."

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A person is Catholic as long as he is a member of the Mystical Body of Christ, exactly, even dead members steeped in and thoroughly attached to mortal sin (though their catholicity doesn't save them from hell).

However, I'm speaking only of those who ARE excommunicated in the most euphemistic terms I know how. Those who are anathema are excommunicated in the order of divine law; those who incur latae sententiae or ferendae sententiae excommunication are excommunicated in the order of Church law. This is a great many people, I'm afraid...all stricken from the Mystical Body and no longer Catholic. I am not making the statement that any specific person is not Catholic, though.

Most people will tell you that it is very difficult to excommunicate one's self by a sentence already established Church law for a specific crime (incur latae sententiae excommunication). However, if one were actually to read can.s 1321-1325, one would see that excommunication is likely imputed to a person more often than it is excused or tempered. For anathema it's even easier to incur the penalty, in most cases all one has to do is say some specific proposition.

I am in complete agreement. As long as a person remains a member of the Mystical Body, he is Catholic...no getting around that.

Mar 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Pat-5351 said: Chelsea, that is interesting, I totally agree, but add that I was just doing some in depth reading on...
(Quote) Pat-5351 said:

Chelsea, that is interesting, I totally agree, but add that I was just doing some in depth reading on excommunication, and the concept is that once baptized a Catholic, you are a Catholic, no matter how recalcitrant or obstinately opposing you might be. Untiil you are excommunicated (or seek to excommunicate yourself, through request or deed), you are "one of us."

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Even excommunicated you remain a Catholic. In essence Excommunication is a disciplinary action whose purpose is to show the excommunicated the seriousness of their sin. It bars one from receiving the Sacraments until one is forgiven of their sins which lifts the excommunication.

But therre are several levels. At the basic level, for example, a women who obtains an abortion, all the person has to do is go to confessions and obtain absolution. This also applies to any excommunicated person in imminent danger of death.

A more formal excommunication can require a Bishop to lift it by giving absolution to the person. Usually, this would be the case where a bishop has formally excommunicated someone and reserves absolution to himself. Then there is the most serious level, such as a priest disclosing something he heard in Confession. This is also an automatic excommunication, but absolution is reserved solely to the Pope. However, the Pope can delegate.

But this remaining a Catholic under excommunication or a voluntary leaving of the Church is part of the Sacrament of Baptism. So that is on the spiritual level.

On a purely human level, you cease being a Catholic anytime, by word or action, you renounce the faith. But note, that does not change the spiritual reality.

Mar 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Even excommunicated you remain a Catholic.
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Even excommunicated you remain a Catholic.

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Excommunication doesn't change the ontological reality which is the indelible characters on the soul from either Baptism, Confirmation or Holy Orders. However, one certainly does cease to be Catholic, if by Catholic one means a member of the Mystical Body of Christ, if he incurs an excommunication.

The Catholic Encyclopedia at the New Advent website sums it up like this:

'It is not merely the severing of the outward bond which holds the individual to his place in the Church; it severs also the internal bond, and the sentence pronounced on earth is ratified in heaven. It is the spiritual sword, the heaviest penalty that the Church can inflict (see the patristic texts quoted in the Decree of Gratian, cc. xxxi, xxxii, xxxiii, C. xi, q. iii). Hence in the Bull "Exsurge Domine" (16 May, 1520) Leo X justly condemned Luther's twenty-third proposition according to which "excommunications are merely external punishments, nor do they deprive a man of the common spiritual prayers of the Church". Pius VI also condemned (Auctorem Fidei, 28 Aug., 1794) the forty-sixth proposition of the Pseudo-Synod of Pistoia, which maintained that the effect of excommunication is only exterior because of its own nature it excludes only from exterior communion with the Church, as if, said the pope, excommunication were not a spiritual penalty binding in heaven and affecting souls. The aforesaid proposition was therefore condemned as false, pernicious, already reprobated in the twenty-third proposition of Luther, and, to say the least, erroneous. Undoubtedly the Church cannot (nor does it wish to) oppose any obstacle to the internal relations of the soul with God; she even implores God to give the grace of repentance to the excommunicated. The rites of the Church, nevertheless, are always the providential and regular channel through which Divine grace is conveyed to Christians; exclusion from such rites, especially from the sacraments, entails therefore regularly the privation of this grace, to whose sources the excommunicated person has no longer access.'

Besides that, a Bishop has to delegate the jurisdiction to a priest to lift an excommunication for an abortion. It takes more than a simple absolution...it takes a separate rite.

Mar 17th 2013 new

(Quote) Pat-5351 said: Chelsea, that is interesting, I totally agree, but add that I was just doing some in depth reading on...
(Quote) Pat-5351 said:

Chelsea, that is interesting, I totally agree, but add that I was just doing some in depth reading on excommunication, and the concept is that once baptized a Catholic, you are a Catholic, no matter how recalcitrant or obstinately opposing you might be. Untiil you are excommunicated (or seek to excommunicate yourself, through request or deed), you are "one of us."

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It was my understanding that once someone comits a mortal sin that they are automaitcally excomunicated (so to speak). Mortal sin cuts one off from the body of Christ.

Mar 17th 2013 new

(Quote) Christopher-868726 said: It was my understanding that once someone comits a mortal sin that they a...
(Quote) Christopher-868726 said:

It was my understanding that once someone comits a mortal sin that they are automaitcally excomunicated (so to speak). Mortal sin cuts one off from the body of Christ.

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Mortal sin in general results in a minor excommunication (though some mortal sins result in a major excommunication, like heresy, apostasy, or schism); minor excommunication bars one from sacramental reception of the Holy Eucharist. It deadens one as a member of the Mystical Body, but does not cut one off. Not every mortal sin causes one to lose the supernatural virtue of faith or be stricken from the Mystical Body. Only those mortal sins which carry the penalty of major excommunication/anathema result in one being stricken from the Mystical Body.

Mar 18th 2013 new

(Quote) Christopher-868726 said: I have noticed a trend amongst those who do not answer yes to all the faith questions. Ofte...
(Quote) Christopher-868726 said:

I have noticed a trend amongst those who do not answer yes to all the faith questions. Often times I have found that many will say no to the topic of contraception or some other topic but they do say yes to papal infalibility? Does anyone else find this to be a contradiction? Cause if one believes in Papal infalibility then doesnt that mean they should also say yes to just about every other question? Has anyone else ever noticed this and laughed?

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How interesting... The one that stumps me is when premarital sex is okay but contraception isn't.

Mar 18th 2013 new

As I understand it the Pope is only infallible on matters that are specified by the Bible. Not all of the questions asked fall under that category. So it is possible that someone could answer "no" to some of those questions and not be in contradiction to the Pope.

Mar 18th 2013 new

That's my favorite too. I mean I get why some people disagree with both teachings on contraception and premarital sex, but seriously when I see one or the other I think, "ok what's the plan then" or "I don't really think you've thought this through..."

Mar 18th 2013 new

(Quote) Christopher-868726 said: I have noticed a trend amongst those who do not answer yes to all the faith questions. Ofte...
(Quote) Christopher-868726 said:

I have noticed a trend amongst those who do not answer yes to all the faith questions. Often times I have found that many will say no to the topic of contraception or some other topic but they do say yes to papal infalibility? Does anyone else find this to be a contradiction? Cause if one believes in Papal infalibility then doesnt that mean they should also say yes to just about every other question? Has anyone else ever noticed this and laughed?

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Christopher,

I'll be most happy to take this one on. Contraception is the only one I answered No to in the 7/7 which makes me a 6/7. I/we did never practiced AFB. My opinion is not based on my personal life. I have three wonderful adult children and most likely 2 early miscarriages. The reason I changed my thought process on this matter is that I saw other women with more children than they could handle emotionally/physically/financially, etc., it broke them. Some of the men left the women and children alone with the burden they could not handle. Have you ever seen children that grow up under these circumstances? I have, disastrous! Some men stayed, but all of these men had all of the sex they wanted and did not assume the responsibility of being a real man. I'm not anti sex, love it, wish it was something I could be engaged in now, it's wonderful, if it's a shared intimate bond between two loving responsible partners. Now tell me who is really sinning under these circumstances as I've described? If I could still be around in 50 years talk to me then. Do you still want to judge me for my stand? Off my soapbox now and true peace be with you Christopher.

Eloise

theheart

Mar 18th 2013 new

(Quote) Eloise-899090 said: Christopher,I'll be most happy to take this one on. Contraception is the onl...
(Quote) Eloise-899090 said:



Christopher,

I'll be most happy to take this one on. Contraception is the only one I answered No to in the 7/7 which makes me a 6/7. I/we did never practiced AFB. My opinion is not based on my personal life. I have three wonderful adult children and most likely 2 early miscarriages. The reason I changed my thought process on this matter is that I saw other women with more children than they could handle emotionally/physically/financially, etc., it broke them. Some of the men left the women and children alone with the burden they could not handle. Have you ever seen children that grow up under these circumstances? I have, disastrous! Some men stayed, but all of these men had all of the sex they wanted and did not assume the responsibility of being a real man. I'm not anti sex, love it, wish it was something I could be engaged in now, it's wonderful, if it's a shared intimate bond between two loving responsible partners. Now tell me who is really sinning under these circumstances as I've described? If I could still be around in 50 years talk to me then. Do you still want to judge me for my stand? Off my soapbox now and true peace be with you Christopher.

Eloise

theheart



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Take out the"did" before never. Bad editing job on my part.

theheart

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