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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Mar 15th 2013 new
(Quote) Naomi-698107 said: Bingo! For all our dodgey, lustful, murderous, lying, scum bag fellows that have...
(Quote) Naomi-698107 said:



Bingo!



For all our dodgey, lustful, murderous, lying, scum bag fellows that have dotted the Papacy during the last 2000 years, no Pope has ever altered or attempted to alter the Truth of the Church or the doctrine She teaches. Christ promised the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church, no evil can be taught by it. A Pope might say something stupid, do something evil, but never has a Pope done so under the office of Papal infallibility.



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Pope Honorius was condemned as a heretic by an ecumenical council with the approval of his successor. Denying that is true is nothing but historical revisionism.

Papal infallibility ex cathedra isn't in question here.

And again we must not think that in everything and everywhere his judgment is infallible, but then only when he gives judgment on a matter of faith in questions necessary to the whole Church; for in particular cases which depend on human fact he can err, there is no doubt, though it is not for us to control him in these cases save with all reverence, submission, and discretion. Theologians have said, in a word, that he can err in questions of fact, not in questions of right; that he can err extra cathedram, outside the chair of Peter, that is, as a private individual, by writings and bad example.

-- St. Francis De Sales The Catholic Controversy

www.goodcatholicbooks.org

The ultramontane idea that the Pope is some sort of God on Earth whose personal actions are unquestionable is what is in question.
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Mar 15th 2013 new
(Quote) Patricia-29176 said: I would add that their posts are also disrespectful (to Pope Frances and to ...
(Quote) Patricia-29176 said:





I would add that their posts are also disrespectful (to Pope Frances and to me in Pope Francis thread), immature (calling names, not waiting even 1 day before attacking Pope Francis), and arrogant ( because I sincerely doubt that anyone attacking Pope Frances has any real theological credentials from a reputable university).

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Reputable university. Stop worshipping academics. They are proud as snakes and are responsible for a lot of the problems we have in the Catholic Church.
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Mar 15th 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: Pope Honorius was condemned as a heretic by an ecumenical council with the approval of his succes...
(Quote) John-220051 said:

Pope Honorius was condemned as a heretic by an ecumenical council with the approval of his successor. Denying that is true is nothing but historical revisionism.

Papal infallibility ex cathedra isn't in question here.

And again we must not think that in everything and everywhere his judgment is infallible, but then only when he gives judgment on a matter of faith in questions necessary to the whole Church; for in particular cases which depend on human fact he can err, there is no doubt, though it is not for us to control him in these cases save with all reverence, submission, and discretion. Theologians have said, in a word, that he can err in questions of fact, not in questions of right; that he can err extra cathedram, outside the chair of Peter, that is, as a private individual, by writings and bad example.

-- St. Francis De Sales The Catholic Controversy

www.goodcatholicbooks.org

The ultramontane idea that the Pope is some sort of God on Earth whose personal actions are unquestionable is what is in question.
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Pope Honorius was declared anathema and an heretic at three different Ecumenical Councils to my recollection. There is no good reason to doubt that he is in fact anathema.

A Pope is not impeccable by ascending to the chair of Blessed Peter; he can sin, he can err in his natural capacity to know and to convey truth.

I believe you mislabel as ultramontane those who hold the Pope impeccable and infallible in all actions whatsoever they may be. It merely sounds like insanity to me, not ultramontanism. To my recollection, ultramontanism was an orthodox opposition that sprang up in France and French territories against the Gallican national Church and its revisionist doctrine on the Holy Father. I have noticed that several historians seem to use the label as you use it, however.

I don't take this thread to be anything about our current Holy Father, as you've never mentioned him in this thread. The fact is, an evil man can hold a good and brilliant office, such as the Papacy (and we know by history that several such men have done so). I personally do not see that it would be within the office of a lay man to rebuke a Pope. How does an inferior morally rebuke a superior? Obviously, one can offer a type of fraternal correction under the right conditions (i.e., those under one's authority are in danger, one has good reason to believe the superior will heed him, etc.). I shudder at the Irish "pray, pay, obey" stance, but sometimes, especially regarding the Church, that stance does have its merit. This doesn't mean that we can satisfy ourselves to be lemmings, obviously we have to be adult about moral choices, but it does put into perspective one's options vis a vis the Holy Father.



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Mar 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: Poor comparison.
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

Poor comparison.

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If that were true, you'd be able to explain why. But since it is an apt comparison, you don't have much choice other than to deny it with an unsupported assertion.

There is no (good) reason for this immediate nastiness, and we all know it.

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Mar 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: I don't take this thread to be anything about our current Holy Father, as you'v...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



I don't take this thread to be anything about our current Holy Father, as you've never mentioned him in this thread.

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This thread was started right after a number of folks (including John and Bernard) started taking flack in a different one for their complaining.

While I give John credit for at least taking it to a different thread, it's nontheless appears to be a continuation of his previous efforts. Even if it is total coincidence, given the big picture and the fact that he new he was irritating people, it remains in bad taste.

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Mar 15th 2013 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: This thread was started right after a number of folks (including John and Bernard) starte...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

This thread was started right after a number of folks (including John and Bernard) started taking flack in a different one for their complaining.

While I give John credit for at least taking it to a different thread, it's nontheless appears to be a continuation of his previous efforts. Even if it is total coincidence, given the big picture and the fact that he new he was irritating people, it remains in bad taste.

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I believe you're talking about the "Pope Francis!" thread. I read through all of its 19 pages already to see what Patricia was talking about...and don't recall coming upon any complaining on their parts (i.e., John and Bernard). I did see quite a bit of what comes across to me as sentimental over-reaction to the info they provided or the points they made. While it may have been unwise (meaning not an aid to the pursuit of happiness) for them to provide the info, make the points or continue on after a bad reception, that still doesn't necessitate that their actions were sinful. If the consideration is only one of bad taste, then why not temper the bad taste with some words from St. Paul? "Bear ye one another's burdens; and so you shall fulfill the law of Christ." and "Put ye on therefore, as the elect of God, holy, and beloved, the bowels of mercy, benignity, humility, modesty, patience: Bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if any have a complaint against another: even as the Lord hath forgiven you, so do you also. But above all these things have charity, which is the bond of perfection: And let the peace of Christ rejoice in your hearts, wherein also you are called in one body: and be ye thankful."

I really do not find it in bad taste to explore what one's moral recourse is in regard to the potential sinful behavior of one's superiors. I think that is in fact very wise.

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Mar 15th 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: If Alexander VI were Pope today would it be judgmental to rebuke his conduct.
(Quote) John-220051 said: If Alexander VI were Pope today would it be judgmental to rebuke his conduct.

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Why keep dredging up reasons to justify ignoring, criticizing, and disobeying the pope?


Modern popes haven't lived like you Alexander VI. Be thankful. Stop this petulance already.

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Mar 15th 2013 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: John, you, Bernard, and a number of others have been acting in an incredibly crass and tasteless m...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

John, you, Bernard, and a number of others have been acting in an incredibly crass and tasteless manner.

I'm sorry that there are so many people who are so down on the Church that they can't ever do anything but complain about it. I'm sorry that some are so bitter and angry that it is evidently a priority to make sure that the rest of us can't even have a whole day to bask in happiness and hope that the new Pope will be able do something good.

Yes, there have been bad, horrible Popes. Yes the human beings running the Church screw things up royally on a regular basis.

But there is an appropriate is a time for everything, and this is not the time for your griping.

If it is SOOO important for you guys to constantly find fault with the Church, why don't you all find yourself a nice atheist or Protestant, or Muslim or some other such website where you can express your complaints to an appreciative audience for a week or two. Let the rest of us actually think happy thoughts about the new Pope for at least a little bit before you start the inevitable complaining.

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theheart rose clap Bow Dove lil mikie pope I thought we were suppose to love and pray for one another and not gossip, keep thoughts and such postiive...we all falter.....can't we just be at peace and harmony and let God....

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Mar 15th 2013 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: John, you, Bernard, and a number of others have been acting in an incredibly crass and tasteless m...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

John, you, Bernard, and a number of others have been acting in an incredibly crass and tasteless manner.

I'm sorry that there are so many people who are so down on the Church that they can't ever do anything but complain about it. I'm sorry that some are so bitter and angry that it is evidently a priority to make sure that the rest of us can't even have a whole day to bask in happiness and hope that the new Pope will be able do something good.

Yes, there have been bad, horrible Popes. Yes the human beings running the Church screw things up royally on a regular basis.

But there is an appropriate is a time for everything, and this is not the time for your griping.

If it is SOOO important for you guys to constantly find fault with the Church, why don't you all find yourself a nice atheist or Protestant, or Muslim or some other such website where you can express your complaints to an appreciative audience for a week or two. Let the rest of us actually think happy thoughts about the new Pope for at least a little bit before you start the inevitable complaining.

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sorry
john i was in agrrement with you for got to say that!

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Mar 15th 2013 new

Good grief.

I am shocked how devisive this conversation has gotten and how quickly.

 

Everyone must speak of the new Pope with the respect the position deserves.

Those calling down doom and gloom, for whatever reason, can keep their yaps shut until he actually DOES something (as pope) to earn your disdain.

I really hate to be the bad guy, but if this kind of stuff continues, I will be handing out "time-outs" quite freely.

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