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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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Mar 15th 2013 new

p.s. Sam, I did check your profile to learn more about you and where you are coming from (and no, I am not a cougar, so don't worry about that). I also have a BSc in Geography (as well as a BA in Archaeology) and am now doing graduate courses in Theology. High five, younger brother.

Mar 16th 2013 new

(Quote) Rosanna-921185 said: Thank you for this, Sam. I would like to pick your brain a little more.
(Quote) Rosanna-921185 said:


Thank you for this, Sam. I would like to pick your brain a little more.


I do know people who follow the messages of Maria Divine Mercy (warningsecondcoming.com) and are quite "evangelical" in promoting her messages. I have read some of the messages, but not enough to discern what the problems are really. The website does seem to promote Catholic values, though the prophecies are worrisome. What are the problems with these messages based on your knowledge?


I have read Fr. Charles Aminjon "The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life" (originally published in 1881, and was promoted by St. Therese of Lisieux) and the vision given in that book seems to be very different from that of the warningsecondcoming.

--hide--


Well we have to remember that private revelation is not binding in any sense..so if there is contradiction between messages, there is no guarantee that either of them are right.


However there are ways to discern falsehoods in prophecy...a big give away is doctrinal errors...I can not comment on the Fr. Charles Aminjon but the Maria Divine Mercy prophecies contain countless doctrinal errors and contradictions within itself. Just one single error, no matter how small, discredits the entire prophecy because Jesus cannot lie or contradict Himself. So there are a few contradictions in these prophecies and a lot of doctrinal error.


THe woman is apparently making a book that is supposed to be added to the scriptures and she is going on tour in austrailia to promote it.


For instance, I remember reading one that stated that any truth not from the scriptures was a false doctrine...which is not a Catholic teaching..but a protestant one.


it also teaches a heresy known as millenarianism


Back in 2011, she predicted that world war III, starting in Europe, would begin within a few months...this has not happened.


She says that an Archbishop put her messages to test and rejected them in an interviewwww.blessedmotherschildren.com

the fact that she continues to give messages is disobedience against the Church and lack of humility

Eye witnesses have also reported that prophecies that have failed have been removed from the website.


in the 45th message it is stated that love is confusing...the bible clearly tells us what love is and it is not confusing..confusion is the sign of an evil spirit


Here are some particularly strange quotes...I am getting these off a website. Most of the claims of the site were not very convicing but the link is posted below for your reference

Jesus on Nov 7, 2011) “My daughter you will feel isolated, rejected, feared and will suffer harshly in My name. Without your sacrifice I could not fulfill My promise to save mankind so that every soul is accorded the opportunity to benefit from their rightful inheritance.” The visionary is said to be a necessary co-redeemer. Without her, God would not be able to fulfill his promise: the salvation of souls. The omnipotence of God and our salvation through Jesus Christ is called into question. Mary on Dec 16, 2011) “You are the true end times prophet guided by the Heavens to help convert the world.” The visionary is told to be the true ‘end times prophet’ like there would be only one single ‘end times prophet’. That cannot be true because before her there were numerous prophecies concerning the end times. And the prophet Joel tells us: “Then afterward I will pour out my spirit upon all mankind. Your sons and daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.” (Joel 3:1) So, also in the future the Spirit of God will speak through people, for the gift of prophecy comes from God.
Jesus on Aug 31, 2011) “All religions, all creeds […] will respond to the light of the truth now. They are all so precious to My Eternal Father.” 10. (Jesus on Nov 21, 2010) “To My churches around the world hear My call. […] All paths lead to God.” 11. (Jesus on Dec 20, 2010) “Irrespective of which path you follow God, or whether you believe in Me, his only beloved son, stand together as one.” 12. (God the Father on Jan 16, 2012) “Much of the truth, ignored by My churches down through the centuries, will emerge again.” “All religions are so precious in the eyes of the eternal father.” This expresses that God the Father does not care which religion you belong to. The message claims that not alone the faith in Christ means salvation but without limitation any other path. The Church of Christ is not the only true religion founded by God but only one of many valuable religions. The Catholic Church is one among many nice churches founded by God. Of course, every soul regardless of which religion is loved by God and so is infinitely precious. A person who does not acknowledge Christ is therefore not automatically lost. The divine mercy certainly does not stop at the borders of the Roman Catholic Church. (so St. Edith Stein) Nonetheless, religions and creeds which conclude errors cannot be ‘equally precious’ or ‘equivalent’ to the denomination to Christ. No one comes to the Father except through Christ, who is the one and only way. (John 14:6) ‘All roads or paths leading to God’ is a heretical new-age ideology. Indeed, it does matter by what means we follow God, which way we take and whether we believe in the Son, Jesus Christ. St. John writes: “Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life.” (1 John 5:12)
I do find these quite odd and contrary to what the Church teaches. especially this last one... that all religions are ok.
warningsecondcoming.blogspot.com

Mar 16th 2013 new

(Quote) Rosanna-921185 said: p.s. Sam, I did check your profile to learn more about you and where you are coming from (and n...
(Quote) Rosanna-921185 said:

p.s. Sam, I did check your profile to learn more about you and where you are coming from (and no, I am not a cougar, so don't worry about that). I also have a BSc in Geography (as well as a BA in Archaeology) and am now doing graduate courses in Theology. High five, younger brother.

--hide--


Sorry my last response was done so poorly. It is very sloppy, I apologize

Mar 16th 2013 new

(Quote) John-146319 said: I wonder why people spend so much time obsessing over something which not only runs contrary to wh...
(Quote) John-146319 said:

I wonder why people spend so much time obsessing over something which not only runs contrary to what our Lord tells us in scripture (You know not the hour...) but also over something for which they have no control? I think the time would be better spent in prayer or confession, depending on one's priorities. But I guess some folks are given to drama and would rather chat up all of the eerie coincidences than heeding our Lord's admonition to simply be prepared by living our lives according to His teachings. Thank Him for His blessings, benevolence, and never ending forgiveness. Ask Him to help you to serve Him to the best of your abilities, and your reward will already be written in Heaven regardless of any prophecy of doom.

--hide--

I forget which Saint it was, but when asked what he would do if he knew the end was about to happen, he replied words to the effect, "I would continue doing whatever I was about because that is God's will for me."

If one sincerely tries to live life as God wants us to, we don't have to rush off to confession or drop on our knees. Of course, if you have been busy sinning you probably should rush off to confession and fall on your knees praying.

Mar 16th 2013 new

Christ told us its not our place to know.

While we can live prepared in our souls for the end times, I think its a bit assinine actually. I could slip on the soap in teh shower and bust my skull open, and hey presto, there's my "end times" and judgement day.

It is not our place to know nor to dwell on it. End times fantasies are the domain of heretics and Protestants. Catholics have no business entertaining it.

Mar 16th 2013 new

As for that nut job Divine Maria or whoever, she doesn't even have the guts to release her name publically. All of the Prophets put their money where their mouths are and were known to the community. She instead hides behind a pen name so when her ramblings are proven as BS she can slip away back into her normal life, no harm done.

Jimmy Atkin did a piece on that crook.

Mar 16th 2013 new

(Quote) Sam-948516 said: I suppose a good start to get the conversation going would be the Pre tribulation rapture. <...
(Quote) Sam-948516 said:

I suppose a good start to get the conversation going would be the Pre tribulation rapture.


The pre tribultation rapture is the belief that before the great tribulation spoken in the end times, Jesus is going to come and snatch away those faithful Christians and spare them the torments of the tribulation. This is the dominant position held by fundamentalist today. There are many problems with this however...I guess a good place to start is a brief history.


1. It was never preached in the early Church, never had such a view been held up until 1800ish when it was invented by a man named John Nelson Darby, in a movement known as dispensationalism. Many fundamentalist will respond with a list of vague out of context references to people like St. Jerome using the word Rapture in his Latin translation of the vulgate..however keep in mind the Catholics do not deny that a rapture could happen...but it will not happen before the tribulation. Regardless, in the case of St. Jerome, he was not using the word rapture in the sense that fundamentalist use it today. So what we have, is a novel doctrine preached about 150-200 years ago, not held by any of the early Christians. It has been widely spread among fundamentalist especially with the production of the "Left behind" novels...but the funny thing is in these novels, and correct me if I am wrong, I believe the good people are left and the bad people are taken away. Showing a person who holds this doctrine that 1. it is new, and 2. it is largely popularized by a fictional book series is a good place to start in explaining this belief.


Before looking at what they base it on, let us look at the consequences of such a belief.


1. a pre tribulation rapture means that people who believe they are good Christians are expecting that they will be saved before the tribulation, they believe they will be taken up by Jesus, or raptured away..What will this do for those people that hold this view and, when the tribulation happens whenver it happens, do not get raptured? How do you think this will affect their faith? As far as they know, they were good and now they have not been raptured. What hope would they feel after this? Fear? Complete inability to collect themselves and figure out the Truth. This doctrine may seem harmless but because it is false it will have untold consequences on those who hold it at the time of the tribulation... getting it out of society now and rooting it out as much as possible will limit this type of scenario.


2. Convincing a person that there is no pre tribulation rapture will help ground them in God. If they are always focused and looking for the signs of the times, that is less time they are spending praying, reading the scriptures, and focusing on their faith. They are always looking for the next big sign, getting sucked into the next end of the world prophecy, and not doing as our Lord told us. Conversely, grounding them in Faith, helping them to understand the true meaning of suffering for Christ, and allowing them to look to the here and now and persevering in grace will give them a much better chance at salvation and open them up to the fullness of Truth in the Catholic Church.


Finally I want to point out a few key verses that this is based on..namely 1 thessolinians 4:15-16 "For the Lord Himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who in Christ, shall rise first. 16 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord.


Taken by itself, this verse certainly sounds convincing...but the key to virtually all fundamentalist claims is that they do not take verses in context.


The context of this verse is this... at this time there were many who believed that they were going to witness the second coming of Christ.. the Thessalonians were no exception to this. The Thessalonians were concerned that those who had died were not going to be ressurected with Christ, so St. Paul was giving them words of comfort and assuring them that those who had fallen asleep were promised the same salvation and resurrection. Let us add the context of this quote, looking at verse 12 from the same chapter (4). "And we will not have you ignorant , brethern, concerning them that are asleep, that you NOT BE SORROWFUL, even as others who have no hope. 13 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again; even so them WHO HAVE SLEPT THROUGH JESUS, will God bring with him. 14 For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall NOT PREVENT THEM WHO HAVE SLEPT. and the last verse of the chapter, 17: Wherefore COMFORT YE ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDs.


Once you add the rest of the verse and the context, it is easy to see what is actually being talked about here. Look at verse 16 again...we who are alive and WHO ARE LEFT...left after what? Verse 14 THE COMING OF THE LORD. After the coming of the Lord are those who are alive taken up, following the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and we will again be united in heaven.


If you take this type of approach with other verses they use...you will see similar tactics.


Always check contexts, and compare it with what the rest of the bible says. if the bible said nothing else, and it was only verse 15 and 16 it would be different. But the coming of the Lord is triumphant and glorious..not quiet, then leaving, then loud again. 2 comings..not three, or four, or even some believe in five.


Here are a couple of resources that are helpful


www.catholic.com


Catholic answers is one of my favorites.


www.youtube.com


Tim staples: former baptist pastor now Catholic apologist.

--hide--

I really hate the Rapture. It is the concuction of deluded Protestants. I know a few Protestants who beleive it and say its Bibical. Its not. And it calls Christ a liar. He said there'd be one final end day, where all would be judged. No good little Christians soliders sucked up to Heaven in the nuddy, all the heathens left behind.

One day. One final judgement. The Rapture implies there will be two [or more].

Mar 16th 2013 new
This woman who receives "messages" sounds batty. A magnet who attracts other loonies whose craziness has taken the quantum leap into religion (thus making it unassailable by doctors or confessors). I bet she's a real joy to live with. Ignore her! All we need do is live right, be holy, love God and others. Have faith! The rest will take care of itself.
Mar 16th 2013 new

(Quote) Sam-948516 said: Well we have to remember that private revelation is not binding in any sense....
(Quote) Sam-948516 said:


Well we have to remember that private revelation is not binding in any sense..so if there is contradiction between messages, there is no guarantee that either of them are right.


However there are ways to discern falsehoods in prophecy...a big give away is doctrinal errors...I can not comment on the Fr. Charles Aminjon but the Maria Divine Mercy prophecies contain countless doctrinal errors and contradictions within itself. Just one single error, no matter how small, discredits the entire prophecy because Jesus cannot lie or contradict Himself. So there are a few contradictions in these prophecies and a lot of doctrinal error.


THe woman is apparently making a book that is supposed to be added to the scriptures and she is going on tour in austrailia to promote it.


For instance, I remember reading one that stated that any truth not from the scriptures was a false doctrine...which is not a Catholic teaching..but a protestant one.


it also teaches a heresy known as millenarianism


Back in 2011, she predicted that world war III, starting in Europe, would begin within a few months...this has not happened.


She says that an Archbishop put her messages to test and rejected them in an interviewwww.blessedmotherschildren.com

the fact that she continues to give messages is disobedience against the Church and lack of humility

Eye witnesses have also reported that prophecies that have failed have been removed from the website.


in the 45th message it is stated that love is confusing...the bible clearly tells us what love is and it is not confusing..confusion is the sign of an evil spirit


Here are some particularly strange quotes...I am getting these off a website. Most of the claims of the site were not very convicing but the link is posted below for your reference

Jesus on Nov 7, 2011) “My daughter you will feel isolated, rejected, feared and will suffer harshly in My name. Without your sacrifice I could not fulfill My promise to save mankind so that every soul is accorded the opportunity to benefit from their rightful inheritance.” The visionary is said to be a necessary co-redeemer. Without her, God would not be able to fulfill his promise: the salvation of souls. The omnipotence of God and our salvation through Jesus Christ is called into question. Mary on Dec 16, 2011) “You are the true end times prophet guided by the Heavens to help convert the world.” The visionary is told to be the true ‘end times prophet’ like there would be only one single ‘end times prophet’. That cannot be true because before her there were numerous prophecies concerning the end times. And the prophet Joel tells us: “Then afterward I will pour out my spirit upon all mankind. Your sons and daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.” (Joel 3:1) So, also in the future the Spirit of God will speak through people, for the gift of prophecy comes from God.
Jesus on Aug 31, 2011) “All religions, all creeds […] will respond to the light of the truth now. They are all so precious to My Eternal Father.” 10. (Jesus on Nov 21, 2010) “To My churches around the world hear My call. […] All paths lead to God.” 11. (Jesus on Dec 20, 2010) “Irrespective of which path you follow God, or whether you believe in Me, his only beloved son, stand together as one.” 12. (God the Father on Jan 16, 2012) “Much of the truth, ignored by My churches down through the centuries, will emerge again.” “All religions are so precious in the eyes of the eternal father.” This expresses that God the Father does not care which religion you belong to. The message claims that not alone the faith in Christ means salvation but without limitation any other path. The Church of Christ is not the only true religion founded by God but only one of many valuable religions. The Catholic Church is one among many nice churches founded by God. Of course, every soul regardless of which religion is loved by God and so is infinitely precious. A person who does not acknowledge Christ is therefore not automatically lost. The divine mercy certainly does not stop at the borders of the Roman Catholic Church. (so St. Edith Stein) Nonetheless, religions and creeds which conclude errors cannot be ‘equally precious’ or ‘equivalent’ to the denomination to Christ. No one comes to the Father except through Christ, who is the one and only way. (John 14:6) ‘All roads or paths leading to God’ is a heretical new-age ideology. Indeed, it does matter by what means we follow God, which way we take and whether we believe in the Son, Jesus Christ. St. John writes: “Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life.” (1 John 5:12)
I do find these quite odd and contrary to what the Church teaches. especially this last one... that all religions are ok.
warningsecondcoming.blogspot.com

--hide--

Thanks Sam, and others. What else could I say to those who do follow her messages? The thing is that they are not necessarily dum people but they are convinced we need to heed her messages. Any particular examples of what Maria Divine Mercy says that is scripturally innaccurate or tht has been proven wrong already. I don't want to spend a lot of time studying her website (as I have other pressing things to do) but I do want to form a solid argument when presented with the people who do believe in her.

Does anybody know where she comes from or anything about her background?

Mar 16th 2013 new

(Quote) Rosanna-921185 said: Thanks Sam, and others. What else could I say to those who do follow her mess...
(Quote) Rosanna-921185 said:

Thanks Sam, and others. What else could I say to those who do follow her messages? The thing is that they are not necessarily dum people but they are convinced we need to heed her messages. Any particular examples of what Maria Divine Mercy says that is scripturally innaccurate or tht has been proven wrong already. I don't want to spend a lot of time studying her website (as I have other pressing things to do) but I do want to form a solid argument when presented with the people who do believe in her.

Does anybody know where she comes from or anything about her background?

--hide--


I did notice something interesting about the website. One message was originally dated on March 14 and concerned the election of the new pope. I later checked the website again and now that same message is dated March 12. The papal election occurred on March 13. 2 new messages have been given since that time that speak against the new pope.


While I am skeptical, I do want to argue particular facts about her prophecies and not just simply dismiss her as crazy. People do believe her and we need solid facts to convince them otherwise that what she is saying is not grounded in truth. Blanket statements that she is "a loonie", "full of BS", etc., are not convincing enough and do not use facts about what she said. We need to take what she said and use that to break her arguments.

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