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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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I'm currently in a debate regarding this topic and i'm currently stuck with where they are citing Gal 2:16 www.biblegateway.com

Any help would be appreciated.

I have already referenced James 2:24

and the following taking from John Martignoni from http://www.biblechristiansociety.com

Rom 11:17-23, “But if some of the branches were broken off [the Jews], and you, a wild olive shoot [the Gentiles], were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree [Jesus Christ], do not boast over the branches...For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you...Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

Paul is talking about how salvation has come to the Gentiles, while many of the Jews have rejected it. And he makes it very clear that once you have been grafted into Christ, you must “continue in His kindness,” or you can also be cut off. So, even after you’ve been saved, you can still be cut off from Jesus Christ.

This is further seen in Galatians, chapter 5. Verse 1, “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery [sin].” If once saved always saved is true, then one cannot “submit again” to a “yoke of slavery,” and Paul’s warning makes no sense.
But Paul goes on in verse 4 to say, “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.” Paul is talking to Gentile Christians who had been wrongly taught by the Judaizers that they have to be circumcised and obey the Mosaic Law in order to be true Christians. Paul tells them that is false, and if they submit to circumcision and to the Old Law, they will be “severed from Christ.” If once saved always saved is true, though, they can’t be severed from Christ and, once again, Paul’s warning is meaningless.

We also have the Parable of the Prodigal Son, Luke chapter 15. The Prodigal Son was in his father’s house, and the father here is representative of God the Father. Then, the Prodigal Son leaves his father’s house and goes and lives a sinful life. In the end, though, he repents and returns to his father. After the Prodigal Son returns, the father says this of him in verse 24: “For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.” Notice very carefully, though, that the father says the son is alive “again.” In other words, the son was alive, or saved, when he was in his father’s house at the beginning of the parable; was “dead,” or unsaved, when he left his father’s house and lived in sin; then was alive again, saved again, when he repented and returned to his father’s house. Alive, dead, alive again. Saved, unsaved, saved again.

03/17/2013 new

Long and short of it, Luther actually added the word "alone" into scripture. He did so apparently because he felt it conveyed the tone better, of course, the modern Protestant is oftentimes lacking such historical context and views it as the once saved, always saved, don't worry about "works" construct.

03/17/2013 new
www.catholicapologetics.org

This might all be covered in the sites you already mentioned but I thought this was good. I don't know how anyone could read the Bible and come away from it not seeing the importance of good works. Every time Jesus healed someone he told them to stop sinning, not just to believe in him and they'd be okay. Why the need for all of the animal sacrifices in the Old Testament if works don't matter? Why are we to help our neighbor? It's just trying to take the easy way out because living a life of sacrifice and penance is hard.
03/18/2013 new
Thanks for the suggestions. I ended up ordering a Scott Hahn DVD today. I'm actually really looking forward to it coming in the mail. And then a new study bible.
03/18/2013 new
(Quote) Andrew-560653 said: Thanks for the suggestions. I ended up ordering a Scott Hahn DVD today. I'm actually really looking forward...
(Quote) Andrew-560653 said: Thanks for the suggestions. I ended up ordering a Scott Hahn DVD today. I'm actually really looking forward to it coming in the mail. And then a new study bible.
--hide--


That's a great idea, since Scott Hahn is a convert he seems to reach a lot of people because he used to struggle with the same questions. One series I reference a lot when talking to my Protestant brother is Beginning Apologetics by Fr. Frank Chacon & Jim Burnham. There's a short book to cover each of the Church's teachings and they're really well done. And nothing helped me more than watching Basic Training and hundreds of hours of other stuff on churchmilitant.tv Some don't care for Michael Voris but the way he presents things was exactly what I needed. Best wishes in your evangelizing, doing that will also strengthen your own faith.
03/18/2013 new

I think I brought up this subject myself on CM some months ago. It really bugs me when someone says something about doing a work to "earn" his way into Heaven. It might be a case of misspeaking, but words do have context and they should be used carefully in really important matters, as salvation is. Humans cannot "earn" their way in, no matter how hard they'd try. The imperfect can never match the Perfect. And so that's why Jesus had to come and "buy" our way, being the Perfect Blend of God and man.

Faith and works are a natural team, as I see it. Like a spring and the brook that flows from it. A person can't say "I love you" without giving some sort of evidence of that love, if he wants to be thought of as telling the truth. "Faith without works is dead."

But faith--believing that Jesus is the Son of God and accepting Him and His Way as part of ourself--is the threshold we must cross. That faith changes everything. Crossing that threshold also creates the relationship of forgiveness and re-acceptance after sinning. Unless we cross that threshold and become one of His, forgiveness is not ours to avail. On the other side of that doorway, we can do all the good works we want, but they are empty in the big scheme if we are not His.

Just thinking out loud here.

03/19/2013 new
(Quote) Lina-796057 said: I think I brought up this subject myself on CM some months ago. It really bugs me when someone says something ...
(Quote) Lina-796057 said:

I think I brought up this subject myself on CM some months ago. It really bugs me when someone says something about doing a work to "earn" his way into Heaven. It might be a case of misspeaking, but words do have context and they should be used carefully in really important matters, as salvation is. Humans cannot "earn" their way in, no matter how hard they'd try. The imperfect can never match the Perfect. And so that's why Jesus had to come and "buy" our way, being the Perfect Blend of God and man.

Faith and works are a natural team, as I see it. Like a spring and the brook that flows from it. A person can't say "I love you" without giving some sort of evidence of that love, if he wants to be thought of as telling the truth. "Faith without works is dead."

But faith--believing that Jesus is the Son of God and accepting Him and His Way as part of ourself--is the threshold we must cross. That faith changes everything. Crossing that threshold also creates the relationship of forgiveness and re-acceptance after sinning. Unless we cross that threshold and become one of His, forgiveness is not ours to avail. On the other side of that doorway, we can do all the good works we want, but they are empty in the big scheme if we are not His.

Just thinking out loud here.

--hide--


That was exactly one of the first things I said. That no where in the CCC does say we can work our way into Heaven. It bugs me to Lina. Sadly, I think a lot of Catholics believe that is what we are taught and even the misconception stems out to the Christian sects. I have seen other denominations of Christianity specifically say that we try to work our way into Heaven.

I agree with you 100%
03/19/2013 new

(Quote) Naomi-698107 said: Long and short of it, Luther actually added the word "alone" into scripture. He did so ...
(Quote) Naomi-698107 said:

Long and short of it, Luther actually added the word "alone" into scripture. He did so apparently because he felt it conveyed the tone better, of course, the modern Protestant is oftentimes lacking such historical context and views it as the once saved, always saved, don't worry about "works" construct.

--hide--


Perhaps it's because contemporary protestantism, including Lutheranism, has absorbed some of the Calvinist "double-predestination" feeling as related to monergism, salvation and the scriptures (i.e., once saved, always saved...even against one's own will)?

03/19/2013 new

Hi Andrew,

One of my favorite passages from the Bible (which I also list in my profile) is The Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14-30):

It will be as when a man who was going on a journey called in his servants and entrusted his possessions to them. To one he gave five talents; to another, two; to a third, one—to each according to his ability. Then he went away.

Immediately the one who received five talents went and traded with them, and made another five. Likewise, the one who received two made another two. But the man who received one went off and dug a hole in the ground and buried his master’s money.

After a long time the master of those servants came back and settled accounts with them.

The one who had received five talents came forward bringing the additional five.* He said, ‘Master, you gave me five talents. See, I have made five more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’

Then the one who had received two talents also came forward and said, ‘Master, you gave me two talents. See, I have made two more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’

Then the one who had received the one talent came forward and said, ‘Master, I knew you were a demanding person, harvesting where you did not plant and gathering where you did not scatter; so out of fear I went off and buried your talent in the ground. Here it is back.’

His master said to him in reply, ‘You wicked, lazy servant!* So you knew that I harvest where I did not plant and gather where I did not scatter? Should you not then have put my money in the bank so that I could have got it back with interest on my return?

Now then! Take the talent from him and give it to the one with ten. For to everyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And throw this useless servant into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’

Read into this parable what you will, but to me it speaks to the validation of Faith and Works over Sola Scripture. Interpret the silver talent (an item of value) as Faith in God. The master (our Lord) entrusts the commodity of Faith as represented by the silver talent to his servants, the amount according to their ability. The two servants who invested their talents, or those who evangelized their faith through works, returned to their master a return on his investment. The lazy servant who was content to bury his silver talent in the garden represents (to me) the Christian who says, "I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I need do nothing more to ensure my salvation."

03/19/2013 new
after debating back and forth with one gentleman. This is what he replied to me, "You are in a small minority of people that believe that works are necessary for salvation. Almost none of the great theologians would agree with you. Maybe the Catholic church. My last point would be to just continue seeking the truth and we will find it."
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