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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

Mar 24th 2013 new

(Quote) Felicity-929402 said: The laughable part about this whole debate with Protestants is that they believe works are necessary ...
(Quote) Felicity-929402 said: The laughable part about this whole debate with Protestants is that they believe works are necessary too. They look down their noses at "bad" people who never read the Bible or go to church or give money to missions. Do they actually think these "sinners" are going to Heaven just because that guy says he "believes in Jesus" ? Bizarre. And yes, rofl to some extent. :p
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Well, in all fairness thee was the singular example of St. Dismas, the good thief who asked our Lord during His crucifixion, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." He (Jesus) replied to him, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (Matthew 23:39-43)

But since St. Dismas remains the sole exception and it's impossible for any of us to ever duplicate that circumstance, I will invest myself fully into the idea that our Lord not only wants us to be with Him in Paradise, but to also to bring with us as many of our brothers and sisters as we can through all forms of ministries at our disposal.

Apr 7th 2013 new
(Quote) Andrew-560653 said: I'm currently in a debate regarding this topic and i'm currently stuck with where they are citing Gal ...
(Quote) Andrew-560653 said:

I'm currently in a debate regarding this topic and i'm currently stuck with where they are citing Gal 2:16 www.biblegateway.com





Any help would be appreciated.



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I realize this may be a little late, but I mention it in case others read this thread for information in the future.

Sola Fide (Faith Alone) can be a complex subject, often touching the issues of Salvation (in general), Works, OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved), Sola Gratia, Justification, etc.

This Catholic bible resource is pretty good in that it touches on both the Catholic position and problems with various Protestant theories:

Sacred Scripture Shortcuts > Salvation

www.veritasbible.com

Sacred Scripture Shortcuts > Salvation > Faith Alone

www.veritasbible.com

Sacred Scripture Shortcuts > Salvation > Good Works

www.veritasbible.com

The traditional Haydock Commentary is also available in parallel. For example

www.veritasbible.com

It also has links to detailed articles on many of the particulars.

Hope it helps.
Apr 7th 2013 new

(Quote) Jack-752986 said: (Quote) Andrew-560653 said: I'm currently in a debate regarding this topic and...
(Quote) Jack-752986 said:
Quote:
Andrew-560653 said:

I'm currently in a debate regarding this topic and i'm currently stuck with where they are citing Gal 2:16 www.biblegateway.com



I had come across this debate while i was there in the protestant church. I am Catholic but was evangelized by them into their church. But i knew they were wrong. They are taught that we are wrong, not to question why we are just that we are. There are many i mean so many Catholics that they evangelize over to their side thinking that they are saving us. I was one. And MOST of my friends there were also Catholics like me, oddly i couldn't really feel comfortable with those who weren't. Pray for those who are still there. I personally could name off a couple dozen of them off the top of my head. My heart breaks for them but i can't reach their hearts and i have tried.



Any help would be appreciated.






I realize this may be a little late, but I mention it in case others read this thread for information in the future.

Sola Fide (Faith Alone) can be a complex subject, often touching the issues of Salvation (in general), Works, OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved), Sola Gratia, Justification, etc.

This Catholic bible resource is pretty good in that it touches on both the Catholic position and problems with various Protestant theories:

Sacred Scripture Shortcuts > Salvation

www.veritasbible.com

Sacred Scripture Shortcuts > Salvation > Faith Alone

www.veritasbible.com

Sacred Scripture Shortcuts > Salvation > Good Works

www.veritasbible.com

The traditional Haydock Commentary is also available in parallel. For example

www.veritasbible.com

It also has links to detailed articles on many of the particulars.

Hope it helps.
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Apr 7th 2013 new
(Quote) Jack-752986 said: (Quote) Andrew-560653 said: I'm currently in a debate regarding this topic and i'm currently stuck...
(Quote) Jack-752986 said:
Quote:
Andrew-560653 said:

I'm currently in a debate regarding this topic and i'm currently stuck with where they are citing Gal 2:16 www.biblegateway.com









Any help would be appreciated.










I realize this may be a little late, but I mention it in case others read this thread for information in the future.



Sola Fide (Faith Alone) can be a complex subject, often touching the issues of Salvation (in general), Works, OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved), Sola Gratia, Justification, etc.



This Catholic bible resource is pretty good in that it touches on both the Catholic position and problems with various Protestant theories:



Sacred Scripture Shortcuts > Salvation



www.veritasbible.com



Sacred Scripture Shortcuts > Salvation > Faith Alone



www.veritasbible.com



Sacred Scripture Shortcuts > Salvation > Good Works



www.veritasbible.com



The traditional Haydock Commentary is also available in parallel. For example



www.veritasbible.com



It also has links to detailed articles on many of the particulars.



Hope it helps.
--hide--


I had come across this debate while i was there in the protestant church. I am Catholic but was evangelized by them into their church. But i knew they were wrong. They are taught that we are wrong, not to question why we are just that we are. There are many i mean so many Catholics that they evangelize over to their side thinking that they are saving us. I was one. And MOST of my friends there were also Catholics like me, oddly i couldn't really feel comfortable with those who weren't. Pray for those who are still there. I personally could name off a couple dozen of them off the top of my head. My heart breaks for them but they don't seem interested, they are not listening as far as i can see and they think they have now found God and they are taught that they didn't have Him before they converted and made a personal decision for him. I myself was told that even though i had done sacraments in the Catholic church i ONLY knew about God from these i was not in relationship with him. Because until they make that whole life commitment and surrender to Jesus with their personal declaration they are dead, of the world and not saved or born again. The day that personal decision is made is the day they now believe that they have entered relationship with him and are now born again. The theology and terms mean different things. GET THIS, they do not even use the same church history, they do not even teach that the Catholic church was the first church, they teach that many small scattered groups of home churches that met here and there were brought together into what is now Christianity with the events of Constantine. I know this because i heard it many times over. I come from a mixed marriage and when i was discussing this with my family this is what they had learned as well in Sunday school at a Protestant church. They do not discuss any Catholic theologians like Augustine, they only have a few references to Church fathers and i do not recognize any of them as who i am now learning about. They do not discuss Peter at all. I wondered when i was there why no one talked about Peter and what happened to him because i remembered him and i thought that he was Jesus's best friend so i wondered how he was never talked about. Now i am learning about the Pope, Peter and succession. And i see why they don't. This is what they learn there.
Apr 7th 2013 new

"The Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit."

www.fisheaters.com

Apr 8th 2013 new

Andrew, my post may also be too late to be of any help for you, but since no one else addressed the scripture verse that you are stuck on, I thought I would since I had a little time today.

Gal. 2:16 is making the distinction that a person is justified by ‘faith in Jesus Christ’ and not by ‘works of the Law’.

Those two observances just need to be defined a little.

Works of the Law’; -we know is referring to the works of the ‘Jewish’ Law, (verses 11-15). The ‘works’ are things like circumcision, sacrificing of animals, correct food to eat or not eat, how and when to wash.

As you know, the Catholic Church doesn't teach that this justifies a person. It also needs to be pointed out that there is also a distinction between ‘works’ of the Law, and keeping the commandments of God. Paul does it in 1Cor. 7:19.

Faith in Jesus Christ’; -that's what really needs to be defined in that bible verse (Gal.2:16).
What is it? What is 'real' faith in Jesus Christ? Is it anything less than trusting Jesus in EVERYTHING He taught and instructed to believe and do? The Catholic Church would say it is everything. What would that other person say? Jesus didn't say anything about keeping commandments as being optional, or repenting is optional, or being baptised is optional, or eating and drinking His body and blood is optional.. -and you could go on and on.


Also, when someone says they are ‘saved by faith alone’; they need to define exactly what that means, because from my experience in discussing with others it can mean just about anything.

Does ‘saved’ mean final salvation -as being perfect for heaven, or just justified or redeemed but not sanctified?

And then, what is ‘faith alone’? There are those who use that same phrase, but put completely different meanings to it. Is it just believing something is true, but not applying it to yourself or acting on what you believe? or is it acting on what you believe? Or do they really mean ‘grace’ and not faith?

One thing I learned if you are going to discuss religion and remain at peace, is not to let the argument be between you and the other person. Because it really is not. It's between the other person and 2000 years of authentic and historic Christianity. Let yourself be kind of a third person, who accepts the unchanged truths that have been handed down by an unbroken chain of apostolic succession under the guidence of the Holy Spirit.

I would also suggest you try to use the wording and statements that the church does regarding things, so it is not on your shoulders to correctly define christianity. The same questions have been answered over and over through the centuries.

In this area of concern read paragraphs 1987-2011 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church about Justification, Grace, and Merit.

Also, the JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION from Vatican website.

www.vatican.va

Apr 9th 2013 new

(Quote) Mark-741232 said: Also, the JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION from Vatican website.
(Quote) Mark-741232 said:


Also, the JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION from Vatican website.

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This is off the main subject, but:

It's not right to call the conclusion of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity and the Lutherans a statement of the Church.

Here is the official Catholic response to the Joint Declaration on the Vatican website:

www.vatican.va

Our Holy Father emeritus, Benedict XVI, when he was still Pope also stated this on 27 January 2012:

"Today, moreover, one of the fundamental questions is the problem of the methods adopted in the various ecumenical dialogues. These too must reflect the priority of faith. Knowing the truth is a right of the conversation partner in every true dialogue. It is a requirement of love for one’s brother or sister. In this sense, it is necessary to face controversial issues courageously, always in a spirit of brotherhood and in reciprocal respect. It is also important to offer a correct interpretation of that order or “hierarchy” which exists in Catholic doctrine, observed in the Decree on Ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio (n. 11), which in no way means reducing the deposit of the faith but rather bringing out its internal structure, the organic nature of this unique structure. The study documents produced by the various ecumenical dialogues are very important. These texts cannot be ignored because they are an important, if temporary, fruit of our common reflection developed over the years. Nevertheless their proper significance should be recognized as a contribution offered to the competent Authority of the Church, which alone is called to judge them definitively. To ascribe to these texts a binding or as it were definitive solution to the thorny questions of the dialogues without the proper evaluation of the ecclesial Authority, would ultimately hinder the journey toward full unity in faith. "

Apr 9th 2013 new

For some reason my link didn't work.

I think this one will:

www.vatican.va

Chelsea, you can call this whatever you want.

Apr 11th 2013 new

(Quote) Andrew-560653 said: and his response back, "....does not teach a works salvation. ."
(Quote) Andrew-560653 said: and his response back, "....does not teach a works salvation. ."
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www.biblegateway.com

Apr 13th 2013 new

(Quote) Amber-931533 said: "The Cath...
(Quote) Amber-931533 said:

"The Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit."

www.fisheaters.com

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Hello Amber. Thanks for the link! I seem to have a myriad of Protestant friends and most our Missouri Synod Lutherans. Thanks for the insightful website!

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