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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

Apr 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Peter-933860 said: "In regard to the unnatural desire for another of your own sex." "...
(Quote) Peter-933860 said:

"In regard to the unnatural desire for another of your own sex."

"Homosexual behaviour rebels against the law of nature"

As homosexual acts are a part of nature how can they then be unnatural? And, pray tell me, which are the laws of nature you refer to as being violated? Are they listed somewhere?

By the way. Do you see how easy it is to read my text as I allow some space in it? Try it on one of your humongous chunks of text sometime.

--hide--

Attacking me before any discussion??????? Interesting tactic. You haven't changed, yet you accuse Frank of being aggressive ?????? I refer to the state of perfect creation pre the fall of creation. No disease, bacteria not possesing the ability of being pathogenic. If all were perfect and in harmony and balance, then disease causing viruses would be unlikely to be present, as their environment of reproduction in a sickened hosts body would not have been available. In relation to your disertation on the universe and creation, just as we can't prove the "Perfect State" of creation before the Fall of Mankind, neither can science explain in the detail you are asking for, with any surity.New advances in physics are beginning to shake the foundations of old absolutes. So the inability of proving or disproving theories on creation and the methods of occurence are common to both camps.

Death, pain and disease were not a part of original creation as per scripture. That is if you put any stock in the bible as the revaled Word of God. Our assertions are based on revealed truth via various streams of thought and sources. Does it not sayin scripture that mankind after the fall would be subjct to death and that woman would bear children with pain. The supposition is that these things were not in operatiion Pre the Rebellion of Mankind against God the Creator of all. No human mind anchored in a finite existence has the capability of fathoming infinity. Even though the Mathmatical sciences have the ability of demonstrating both these states in formulae .

Would you prefer the term disordered when referring to homosexuality in action??? It is a psychological disorder not physiological. This is how psychiatry and main stream medicince have viewed homosexual attraction. This was so up until the 1960 when the movement started to 'Nomalize" community opinion in the favor of openly expressed homosexuality in society. Homosexuals entered into both streams of psychology and psychiatry as students and then proceeded to undermine the established medical viewpoint of homosexuality being a psychological condition.

God did not make man with death and decay as a condition of their creation. They opposed their will to the will of God their Creator and so incurred the penalty told to them in the discussion about the Tree of Life, subjectivity to Death, decay and pain.

Apr 29th 2013 new

Peter,


I agree that Chelsea's comment is important. I have never thought of it that way before.... reprinted here >>>>"Decay is merely corruption/death of a good, living member of a material being. It is not integral (i.e., contributing to the wholeness of a being); it was never meant by the Creator to happen.


It is not the laws of nature which lead to decay, but rather the physical laws of a fallen universe."

....................

In a scientific sense, I think that it does pose an interesting and very difficult concept to wrap ones mind around. If true, I think it would mean that entropy would simply not exist in an "unfallen" universe. I'm not saying that is either true or untrue, but if it is true I would find it very difficult to imagine how the universe (and everything in it) would even be possible, as practically everything depends on entropy working the way that it does. scratchchin scratchchin scratchchin I don't have any good answer for this. I can see why you were pondering it for days. Maybe this would make a good topic for a dissertation at a Catholic university with a good science/astronomy/engineering program.


Entropy definitions -
dictionary.reference.com


Ed

Apr 29th 2013 new
Gay marriage may happen soon, also here in CA.

"Marriage equality?" Someone pointed out to me some very good thinking on this topic. No matter what, economic inequality still exists in the workforce between men's earnings, and women's earnings.

So if two men are allowed to legally marry, if that wouldn't create marriage inequality between gay marriage, and traditional marriage, I don't know what would. eyebrow

A two-man "marriage," vs. a traditional marriage, would certainly have an economic advantage.
Apr 29th 2013 new
If this issue legally charges ahead, as it appears to be doing, in order to differentiate sacramental marriages from so called "marriages" based on legal misconstructions, perhaps Catholics in the future may refer to our marriages as "sacramental Catholic marriages."

If Catholics and some Christians would hold tight to our faith on this matter of important definition, not letting it be diminished by issues of the day, our sacrament of marriage cannot be changed by twisted legal jargon.

This is clearly yet another attempt toward the complete and total destruction of Christianity as we know it.
Apr 29th 2013 new
Please recall that Protestant Christian pastors may marry. In some Protestant faiths, a pastor may be openly gay. So in states of the United States or countries whereby gay marriage is legal, a faith-community may be lead by a gay-married pastor, male or female gay-married, that is.

Just how twisted can our culture get?
May 1st 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: Perhaps he meant the Natural Law rather than the "laws of nature". The former w...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

Perhaps he meant the Natural Law rather than the "laws of nature". The former would be an accurate assertion.

--hide--
Isn't the natural law founded on the laws of nature, if one must separate them?

May 1st 2013 new
For starters the Catholic Marriage starts with the questions of intent. These questions ask in a concrete way if the couple is prepared to love as Christ loved. In the case of the homosexual couple they can not answer yes to all 3 questions, and can not love as Christ loved! The question that the homosexual couple an not answer is "do you accept lovingly the Children that God may give you." The homosexual couple can not join in one flesh, and can not consummate their marriage.
May 1st 2013 new

(Quote) Con-888377 said: Attacking me before any discussion??????? Interesting tactic. You haven't changed, yet...
(Quote) Con-888377 said:

Attacking me before any discussion??????? Interesting tactic. You haven't changed, yet you accuse Frank of being aggressive ?????? I refer to the state of perfect creation pre the fall of creation. No disease, bacteria not possesing the ability of being pathogenic. If all were perfect and in harmony and balance, then disease causing viruses would be unlikely to be present, as their environment of reproduction in a sickened hosts body would not have been available. In relation to your disertation on the universe and creation, just as we can't prove the "Perfect State" of creation before the Fall of Mankind, neither can science explain in the detail you are asking for, with any surity.New advances in physics are beginning to shake the foundations of old absolutes. So the inability of proving or disproving theories on creation and the methods of occurence are common to both camps.

Death, pain and disease were not a part of original creation as per scripture. That is if you put any stock in the bible as the revaled Word of God. Our assertions are based on revealed truth via various streams of thought and sources. Does it not sayin scripture that mankind after the fall would be subjct to death and that woman would bear children with pain. The supposition is that these things were not in operatiion Pre the Rebellion of Mankind against God the Creator of all. No human mind anchored in a finite existence has the capability of fathoming infinity. Even though the Mathmatical sciences have the ability of demonstrating both these states in formulae .

Would you prefer the term disordered when referring to homosexuality in action??? It is a psychological disorder not physiological. This is how psychiatry and main stream medicince have viewed homosexual attraction. This was so up until the 1960 when the movement started to 'Nomalize" community opinion in the favor of openly expressed homosexuality in society. Homosexuals entered into both streams of psychology and psychiatry as students and then proceeded to undermine the established medical viewpoint of homosexuality being a psychological condition.

God did not make man with death and decay as a condition of their creation. They opposed their will to the will of God their Creator and so incurred the penalty told to them in the discussion about the Tree of Life, subjectivity to Death, decay and pain.

--hide--

>>>Attacking me before any discussion??????? Interesting tactic.<<<<<

I wasn't aware of any attack on you? I thought I was discussing. Where was the attack in my post?

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>>>>I refer to the state of perfect creation pre the fall of creation. No disease, bacteria not possesing the ability of being pathogenic. If all were perfect and in harmony and balance, then disease causing viruses would be unlikely to be present, as their environment of reproduction in a sickened hosts body would not have been available.<<<<<

Do you even know how viruses do their stuff or are you just guessing? In what way was bacteria different before the fall? Wouldn't bacteria then have tried to multiply in whatever environment they were in? Wouldn't a bacteria, not part of our endogenous flora, have caused a "turf war" as they do inside us nowadays? Didn't Adam and Eve have a immune system? If no, how were there bodies supposed to fight off intruders entering through a wound for example?

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>>>>>Death, pain and disease were not a part of original creation as per scripture.<<<<<

Genesis 3:22 "Then Yahweh God said, 'Now that the man has become like one of us in knowing good from evil, he must not be allowed to reach out his hand and pick from the tree of life too, and eat and live for ever!"

As per scripture, Adam and Eve wasn't immortal. You have no basis for the idea that death and disease wasn't part of the creation. Bacteria and virus are also part of the creation and has a role to play. There is nothing evil or "fallen" in the nature of those critters. As with everything else in nature, in the wrong context, they can be a pain.

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>>>>>"Would you prefer the term disordered when referring to homosexuality in action??? It is a psychological disorder not physiological. This is how psychiatry and main stream medicince have viewed homosexual attraction. This was so up until the 1960 when the movement started to 'Nomalize" community opinion in the favor of openly expressed homosexuality in society."<<<<<

Well, slavery was also supported by all kind of scientific, political and theological instances up until not too long ago. Per your reasoning we could just as well return to the state of being before that darn "movement" started to change community opinion to favor equality among races. Bleeding liberals! I mean before the "movement" started, everybody knew slavery was right.

May 1st 2013 new

(Quote) ED-20630 said: Peter, I agree that Chelsea's comment is important. I have never thought of it that wa...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

Peter,


I agree that Chelsea's comment is important. I have never thought of it that way before.... reprinted here >>>>"Decay is merely corruption/death of a good, living member of a material being. It is not integral (i.e., contributing to the wholeness of a being); it was never meant by the Creator to happen.


It is not the laws of nature which lead to decay, but rather the physical laws of a fallen universe."

....................

In a scientific sense, I think that it does pose an interesting and very difficult concept to wrap ones mind around. If true, I think it would mean that entropy would simply not exist in an "unfallen" universe. I'm not saying that is either true or untrue, but if it is true I would find it very difficult to imagine how the universe (and everything in it) would even be possible, as practically everything depends on entropy working the way that it does. I don't have any good answer for this. I can see why you were pondering it for days. Maybe this would make a good topic for a dissertation at a Catholic university with a good science/astronomy/engineering program.


Entropy definitions -
dictionary.reference.com


Ed

--hide--
Ed, yes it is a fascinating topic to dissect. Was the time arrow as a function of entropy existing in the pre-fall universe? How could the hydrogen fusion in the sun, producing neutrinos, without decay of particles?

May 1st 2013 new

(Quote) Peter-793888 said: For starters the Catholic Marriage starts with the questions of intent. These questions ask in a concret...
(Quote) Peter-793888 said: For starters the Catholic Marriage starts with the questions of intent. These questions ask in a concrete way if the couple is prepared to love as Christ loved. In the case of the homosexual couple they can not answer yes to all 3 questions, and can not love as Christ loved! The question that the homosexual couple an not answer is "do you accept lovingly the Children that God may give you." The homosexual couple can not join in one flesh, and can not consummate their marriage.
--hide--
That is a very good short answer, Peter.

Posts 141 - 150 of 158