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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

Apr 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Peter-933860 said: Never have I said that having sex outside marriage is good or part of Gods plan. Read what I actu...
(Quote) Peter-933860 said:

Never have I said that having sex outside marriage is good or part of Gods plan. Read what I actually write, please Frank.

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Um, I did read. I never mentioned anything about sex outside of marriage either. So I don't know what you're talking about. Homosexual acts or thoughts is going against God. Plain and simple. Good luck to you.

Apr 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Peter-933860 said: Homosexuality is quite common in nature and thus I can't really see how it violates any law o...
(Quote) Peter-933860 said:

Homosexuality is quite common in nature and thus I can't really see how it violates any law of nature. It is a variation which occurs naturally. That being said, sex between humans is supposed to take place within marriage and marriage is for man and woman.

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Peter, let me see if I understand you, and I'm sure I do as you were very succinct. You were merely offering a rebutal to the "natural" argument. You are going by the definition of natural as:


Existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.


So, since we have seen homosexuality in nature in other animals, (not created by humans) then you are saying it won't work to say homosexuality is not natural.


Furthermore, you go on to clarify that you do not see God's plan allowing anyone to have sex outside of marriage.

Apr 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Mike-905381 said: Peter, let me see if I understand you, and I'm sure I do as you were very succinct. Y...
(Quote) Mike-905381 said:

Peter, let me see if I understand you, and I'm sure I do as you were very succinct. You were merely offering a rebutal to the "natural" argument. You are going by the definition of natural as:


Existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.


So, since we have seen homosexuality in nature in other animals, (not created by humans) then you are saying it won't work to say homosexuality is not natural.


Furthermore, you go on to clarify that you do not see God's plan allowing anyone to have sex outside of marriage.

--hide--
Bingo! Thank you Mike smile

Apr 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Frank-410833 said: Um, I did read. I never mentioned anything about sex outside of marriage either...
(Quote) Frank-410833 said:

Um, I did read. I never mentioned anything about sex outside of marriage either. So I don't know what you're talking about. Homosexual acts or thoughts is going against God. Plain and simple. Good luck to you.

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If you didn't mention sex outside marriage than why using Sodom as an example?

Apr 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Peter-933860 said: If you didn't mention sex outside marriage than why using Sodom as an example?
(Quote) Peter-933860 said:

If you didn't mention sex outside marriage than why using Sodom as an example?

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We're talking about homosexuality right? Are we talking about animals? No. We're talking about humans. Homosexuality is wrong among "man" and of course that would take place outside of marriage geniuses since two men or two women getting civally married isn't recognized as a marriage in God's eyes. You two rooty poos are two complicated intellectuals. That'll get you in trouble in the long run and it probably already has in life. Why would anyone waste their energy dwelling on what animals do.

So that's why I mentioned Sodom Peter. Animlas don't have souls therefore whatever they do is irrelevant.

Apr 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Frank-410833 said: You two rooty poos . . .
(Quote) Frank-410833 said:

You two rooty poos . . .

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That's not a nice way to bait me in to your arguement. I'll pray for you brother.

Apr 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Peter-933860 said: (Quote) Mike-905381 said: Peter, let me see if I understand you, ...
(Quote) Peter-933860 said:

Quote:
Mike-905381 said:

Peter, let me see if I understand you, and I'm sure I do as you were very succinct. You were merely offering a rebutal to the "natural" argument. You are going by the definition of natural as:


Existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.


So, since we have seen homosexuality in nature in other animals, (not created by humans) then you are saying it won't work to say homosexuality is not natural.


Furthermore, you go on to clarify that you do not see God's plan allowing anyone to have sex outside of marriage.


Bingo! Thank you Mike

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Homosexuality -Natural Law

"People have a basic, ethical intuition that certain behaviors are wrong because they are unnatural. We perceive intuitively that the natural sex partner of a human is another human, not an animal. "

"The same reasoning applies to the case of homosexual behavior. The natural sex partner for a man is a woman, and the natural sex partner for a woman is a man. Thus, people have the corresponding intuition concerning homosexuality that they do about bestiality—that it is wrong because it is unnatural."

"Natural law reasoning is the basis for almost all standard moral intuitions. For example, it is the dignity and value that each human being naturally possesses that makes the needless destruction of human life or infliction of physical and emotional pain immoral. This gives rise to a host of specific moral principles, such as the unacceptability of murder, kidnapping, mutilation, physical and emotional abuse, and so forth." www.catholic.com

Apr 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: People have a basic, ethical intuition that certain behaviors are wrong because they are unnatura...
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

People have a basic, ethical intuition that certain behaviors are wrong because they are unnatural.

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Bernard, I understand and agree with this reasoning. The quoted explanation you provide does not follow my rigid dictionary definition of "natural" and that's certainly OK.

This thread was started as a call for an easily understood stance on gay marriage. No doubt, others will apply the same definition of "natural" that I originally posted with. So we need to meet people in dialogue with a common understanding of what language they are using. It was clear in reading Peter's initial reply that he came to the dialogue with the common dictionary understanding of "natural"


And that's where he should have been met. Instead he faced condescending insults. I offered my understanding in support of him.


Thanks for your input, Bernard. It adds to a rich dialogue.

Apr 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

Homosexuality -Natural Law

"People have a basic, ethical intuition that certain behaviors are wrong because they are unnatural. We perceive intuitively that the natural sex partner of a human is another human, not an animal. "

"The same reasoning applies to the case of homosexual behavior. The natural sex partner for a man is a woman, and the natural sex partner for a woman is a man. Thus, people have the corresponding intuition concerning homosexuality that they do about bestiality—that it is wrong because it is unnatural."

"Natural law reasoning is the basis for almost all standard moral intuitions. For example, it is the dignity and value that each human being naturally possesses that makes the needless destruction of human life or infliction of physical and emotional pain immoral. This gives rise to a host of specific moral principles, such as the unacceptability of murder, kidnapping, mutilation, physical and emotional abuse, and so forth." www.catholic.com

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Quoting from the catholic.com link you provided:

"Homosexual desires, however, are not in themselves sinful. People are subject to a wide variety of sinful desires over which they have little direct control, but these do not become sinful until a person acts upon them, either by acting out the desire or by encouraging the desire and deliberately engaging in fantasies about acting it out. People tempted by homosexual desires, like people tempted by improper heterosexual desires, are not sinning until they act upon those desires in some manner."

Homosexual desires are naturally occurring, among humans and animals alike. We are, unlike animals, supposed not to give in to such desires. Thus, using the term unnatural is erroneous since it is occurring in nature. Not everything in nature is optimal and good. But that doesn't mean it violates any natural law. Cancer is cells going haywire any not at all beneficial to the host, yet it occurs in nature. Would you use the term unnatural for cancer too?

Apr 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Frank-410833 said: We're talking about homosexuality right? Are we talking about animals? No. ...
(Quote) Frank-410833 said:

We're talking about homosexuality right? Are we talking about animals? No. We're talking about humans. Homosexuality is wrong among "man" and of course that would take place outside of marriage geniuses since two men or two women getting civally married isn't recognized as a marriage in God's eyes. You two rooty poos are two complicated intellectuals. That'll get you in trouble in the long run and it probably already has in life. Why would anyone waste their energy dwelling on what animals do.

So that's why I mentioned Sodom Peter. Animlas don't have souls therefore whatever they do is irrelevant.

--hide--
Namecalling doesn't really give you any brownie points Frank. Take a deep breath, relax and try again. Then we might have a fruitful discussion. Dove

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