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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said: This treatise doesn't address the more important issues facing the Church. I believe that attac...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

This treatise doesn't address the more important issues facing the Church. I believe that attacking the Pope over this will bring about more criticism from others. They will easily interpret this as Catholics fighting among themselves. It will not bring about new friends, but will fortify the Church's enemies.

There are bigger dragons to slay, wouldn't you agree?

Also, it doesn't mention that this rubric has gone out of fashion as far back as the 1950's. It's outdated. Now that it's been brought to the forefront, it will likely be changed. You are, no doubt, aware that permission can be granted by a bishop for exceptions, and that the pope serves as the Bishop of Rome. He can give himself permission.

What kind of example are we setting by attacking a humble man wanting to be of service. The mark of a true leader is that he/she is actually a servant to the people. I interpret his actions to reflect this. On Good Friday, it would serve us well to reflect upon the life of Jesus and how He served His flock -- to the ultimate degree.

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Agree! I would rather follow God's rule: "love in action", than any man-made rubrics.


I would rather put into heart what Jesus said: “Do you know what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord--and you are right, for that is what I am. So if I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. For I have set you an example, that you also should do as I have done to you. Very truly, I tell you, slaves are not greater than their master, nor are messengers greater than the one who sent them. If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them.” (Ei tauta oidate makarioi este, hean poieta auta.)


Jesus asks us to move from knowledge to action, giving love to ALL (men and women).


From Robert Mickens' report in The Tablet on the Pope's Holy Thursday Mass with young detainees: "A young man who spoke on behalf of the residents said, 'We only want to know one thing: why did the pope want to come visit us?' Pope Francis said it was a 'sentiment of his heart" and something that would help him 'more to be humble.' Then he added: 'Things of the heart have no explanation!'"





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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Shara-929649 said: It is that precise point that is the source of concern and highlights the need for intense prayer...
(Quote) Shara-929649 said:

It is that precise point that is the source of concern and highlights the need for intense prayer not just for the pontiff but for us as Church. Lynea hits my exact concerns as I too see it as a symbolic gesture due to the day on which it was done and the two vital and core institutions of the Church that were instituted on this day. He is saying something!!!! If we as lay people are seeing it as such I am sure that Pope Francis and his advisers can figure it out with their obviously superior grasp on theology and canon law. So what does that mean for the Church and what change are they symbolizing? He is saying something!!!! That is the true concern in conjunction with the precedence of the disregarding of liturgical rubrics.

I will be first to admit that it has been done in the past by many priests including my parish priests. I have even allowed my daughter to get her feet washed ( shame on me as at the time I justified it by saying she wants to do it and what harm is being done as it is on the parish level and they will wash other ladies feet as well ). What was concerning to me was not the seemingly charitable and humanitarian gesture but what it might be symbolizing. He is saying something!!!! The Church is a church of symbolism. From the name the Pope chooses to his first actions which are mostly very well thought out and crafted by the pontiff and his advisers who are all theological and canonical geniuses. This was planned. He is saying something!!!! Therefore the great unknown still is WHAT DOES THIS MEAN??? Trust me it means something; especially on HOLY THURSDAY.

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Well said, Shara!

When I saw this, I almost wanted to cry...it's like a kid who thinks their dad is perfect and then they catch him doing something they have been told is wrong. It may just be a little thing, that doesn't really matter that much, but the kid is in that developmental stage where everything is black and white and his whole world is shattered. I just makes my heart sink a little bit.

Going against the rubrics is pretty serious stuff, and much of it is under pain of sin. However, this is a discipline, not a doctrine or moral teaching of the church, right? We must all be sure to pray for our clergy!

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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Rosemarie-744159 said: Agree! I would rather follow God's rule: "love in action", than an...
(Quote) Rosemarie-744159 said:


Agree! I would rather follow God's rule: "love in action", than any man-made rubrics.


I would rather put into heart what Jesus said: “Do you know what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord--and you are right, for that is what I am. So if I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. For I have set you an example, that you also should do as I have done to you. Very truly, I tell you, slaves are not greater than their master, nor are messengers greater than the one who sent them. If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them.” (Ei tauta oidate makarioi este, hean poieta auta.)


Jesus asks us to move from knowledge to action, giving love to ALL (men and women).


From Robert Mickens' report in The Tablet on the Pope's Holy Thursday Mass with young detainees: "A young man who spoke on behalf of the residents said, 'We only want to know one thing: why did the pope want to come visit us?' Pope Francis said it was a 'sentiment of his heart" and something that would help him 'more to be humble.' Then he added: 'Things of the heart have no explanation!'"





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I agree wholeheartedly with following the dictates that the Holy Spirit puts in our hearts but then if we all did what we felt was in our hearts at that moment what would separate us from the protestants and their many and varied churches started by well meaning pastors doing what they felt the Holy Spirit was call them to. What makes us Catholic is a a time honored and tested and Church founded by Christ that is based on a core set of beliefs, traditions and rules. We are by no means ignoring the humanity but highlighting the possible implications of the action.

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Mar 29th 2013 new

Yes to the above, Shara.

It is precisely our rules and our rubrics that lend structure and definition to who we are as Catholics and how we carry out our love for Christ and each other, and in that we strive to follow Christ's example.

Someone once asked me regarding the ordination of women why we were so sexist. I in turn asked her "would you claim that Christ is sexist, when he elevated the women of the time from secondary human beings existing for pleasure and the bearing of children only to the heights of holiness and honor? It is from Christ that we get our ideas of chivalry and the dignity of women." She responded in the negative, and I pointed out that, for whatever reason, and it must have been a good one, Christ chose men as his Apostles. Oh, there were many women who travelled with them and were disciples, but none of them ordained, ministers, apostles. It is not for me to question the actions of my Lord and Savior. In her rubrics and disciplines, Mother Church strives to follow the example of Christ, which is why they are not to be tampered with. They are not merely the feelings of an age gone by, but are the guards charged with the protection of the Church and the souls within her.

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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Lauren-927923 said: http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-resources/triduum/holy-thursday-mandatum.cfm<...
(Quote) Lauren-927923 said:

www.usccb.org

I thought everyone might like to read the above from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops. Most importantly, the focus of the act on charity and love and humble service to one another.

I see nothing wrong with his action, I think it is statement emphasizing the humble service to one another in acts charity. I also believe he has the authority to do so. Likewise I don't think it is my place to question nor criticize it. I am not privy to the Pope's thoughts, nor am I in a position to interpret the rubrics. Some things are essential and some things are not. I do not think the Pope is one bent on bending every rule to his whim, and I trust in him to know the essential versus the nonessential in liturgical application.

The action of Christ washing the feet of his disciples (it doesn't specify only the twelve - Apostles) mirrors likewise the washing of Jesus' feet by the woman of ill repute who washed his feet with her tears and dried them with her hair and kissed and anointed them with oil.

And contrary to the assumption I do not think women should be ordained it is not their place. Not do I see this as a scandal against liturgical law. I see it as a pastoral expression of what the liturgical act is meant to signify.

I have been concerned with something since the election of our Pope and I heard it with Benedict as well, all of the criticism and discussion of whether or not he is good, bad, conservative, moderate, a rebel etc etc. None of that matters. We all seem to be forgeting that Christ promised the Advocate would always be with us and would guide the Church and protect it. It doesn't matter if the priest is what we think is right or even if we assume the Cardinals were all working off their own desires. I have faith in the Holy Spirit, and while I may not understand the choice and may even question it, I trust that the Holy Spirit guided the selection of this man to be our Pope at this point and time for purposes that may only be known to God. And, I am going to try to surrender my fears, wants, expectations to the Will of God, so that my heart is open to learn what I am to learn, experience what I am supposed to experience.

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I agree with you on most of what you said probably 95%. However, I do think that the action sets a poor precedence and has possible liturgical implications and symbolization of things to come. If those were not his intent then I think that the action may have been imprudent. There is no judgement of the Pope but an examination of the action and how it may be interpreted by some and what he is meaning by it. However I do agree that Peter's boat won't sink and thank you for the reminder to trust.

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Mar 29th 2013 new
Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin's comments: www.ncregister.com

For me, one of the biggest takeaways from Jimmy's article is near the end, where he mentions that the foot washing ritual was added to the Holy Thursday ritual in ***1955***. So in terms of church history, it is very new; it has not been done this way since "time immemorial"; and thus we should be open to change in the way it is done and how we interpret it. My 2 cents.
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Mar 29th 2013 new
(Quote) Edward-4511 said: Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin's comments: www.ncregister.com.
(Quote) Edward-4511 said: Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin's comments: www.ncregister.com

For me, one of the biggest takeaways from Jimmy's article is near the end, where he mentions that the foot washing ritual was added to the Holy Thursday ritual in ***1955***. So in terms of church history, it is very new; it has not been done this way since "time immemorial"; and thus we should be open to change in the way it is done and how we interpret it. My 2 cents.
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Meant to say "added to the Holy Thursday Mass".
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Mar 29th 2013 new

Oh my goodness... so many responses, so little time.


First of all, the God doesn't need anyone's opinion. No one. That means, NO ONE. God doesn't even need the opinion of the Pope.

That's right! That's exactly what I just said.

We need GOD'S opinons, and the Pope's duty is to follow what has been handed down and teach clearly what that is.
Yes, we ought to respect the Pope's AUTHORITY as it is from God, handed down through the Apostles. God will often give us a Pope we deserve, and that's not always a good thing.

Some of you seem to have no idea about what Holy Mother Church teaches about Papal Infallibility. The Pope cannot tell you who to bet on the Superbowl. He is not infallible carte blanche. He is infallible when he teaches and professes publicly what has been always true, clearly and without any confusion, that which has already been handed down to him through the extrinsic traditions of the Church as passed down through the Apostles. That which is "kato licas" (entirely whole) is true for ALL places, ALL peoples, and ALL times. God doesn't change His mind. He fits the job description of being God. When all those criteria are met, AND the Pope indicates that what he is pronouncing is ALSO ex cathedra, indicating that it is 'from the Chair of Peter', which indicates that he intentionally and purposely invoking his authority where it IS infallible, then in fact, THAT which he professes to be true, which has been true always throughout all the history of the Church, is in fact, true and infallible.

This is why the Pope has no authority to declare infallibly anything that is novelty vs. dogmatic reality.

There was one Pope, I forget who it was, maybe some history buffs can remind me, who once attempted to declare something dogmatic which, infact, was not. He died before he had a chance to do this.


Gabor, your letter was awesome. One of my favorite lines,

(Quote) Another thing that concerns me is the report that his diocese and seminary in Buenas Aries, Argentina is in a state of shambles. Wha...
(Quote)

Another thing that concerns me is the report that his diocese and seminary in Buenas Aries, Argentina is in a state of shambles. What if anything does this say for his spiritual and fiscal executive abilities? It is no secret that the whole Church is suffering from a crisis in Faith as well as finances and both subjects have to be remedied. Is his parochial track record an indication of the direction we are headed and how concerned should we be? These questions are troubling and won’t go away with wishful thinking. Optimism without serious practical analysis and doctrinal adherence within the traditions of our Holy Church is a sin against prudence and an insult to the saints.

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Naomi from NZL: No offense, but your country is already one of the most, if not THE most, liberal and modernist countries in the world, if not, at least in Western EU.

Ray: The USCCB has historically been known to have a modernist bent, even to the point of disobeying the Holy Father BOLDLY when asked to do something that goes against the direction of modernism. This was the case with Holy Communion in the hand. This is a historical fact, not an opinion.

Now, just to clear the air, anyone here who thinks that the tradition has been that this ceremony was in the context of a liturgy that ALWAYS was celebrating the institution of two (2) Sacraments, first of all, pat yourselves on the back, you've passed this one test on Catholic Liturgy 101. Those who you who doubt this is the case, I suggest you learn about Maundy Thursday before saying anymore about YOUR opinion on this matter. The liturgy is not to be influenced by OPINIONS, but by sacred extrinsic tradition. (If anyone wants to learn about this, let me know and I will point you in the right direction to start reading about this.)


If you are knowledgeable of Maundy Thursday's significance having to do with the institution of two Sacraments, the institution of both Holy Eucharist and Holy Orders, and you are against fraternal charity, please speak up now and let us know, because your detractors (and that is what they are doing PRECISELY and without cause) are suggesting --- that your defense of this extrinsic tradition of the Church is against fraternal charity --- and even against corporal acts of mercy. You have been labeled as "uncharitable" by the inference of saying that you care more about legalism than the poor, even.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

OK, now that we got that straight, allow me to reiterate why this is signficant:


First of all, let me say that this action is apparently/obviously extremely devisive. NO ONE is saying that Corporal Works of Mercy are not important. But even greater than Corporal Works of Mercy are SPIRITUAL Works of Mercy (this is taught by the Church) . Spiritual Works of Mercy are greater because the soul is eternal. But wait! There are poor people who really need their feet washed, and need to feel included in the Body of Christ. OK, we (you and I) do NOT belong to the Church of Feel Good. Nope. Sorry, but the symbol of our holy religion is *drum roll please*

THE CROSS: Our Lord, Jesus Christ, abandoned by almost all his followers, bloodied and bruised, flesh torn, nailed to a cross.


If being Catholic was really easy, then there would be a lot more Catholics. For one, we believe in the 10 Commandments, not the 10 Good Suggestions. But I digressed...


The point of the liturgy is WORSHIP of GOD, not of the good we can do for one another. Yes! Yes! It is important how we treat one another, especially even the poorest of the poor, whether in body or in spirit, but this is about WORSHIP of God, the LITURGY. The highest good IS NOT what good we can do for one another, but the HIGHEST GOOD IS GOD HIMSELF. Anyone who says otherwise has inadvertantly subscribed to the heresy of immanentism. This heresy became popular only recently (relative to the history of the Church), with modernist theologians such as Immanentists, Hans Kung, Hans Urs von Balthasar, etc. (Both, at one time, were hailed by the Church, now we see what they were really up to. For instance, Balthasar wrote a preface for a most dangerous book that was to promote tarot cards. Yep. If that shocks you, you probably didn't know his writings, but he was very popular in the seminaries for many, many years. Today we reap his bad fruits.)

Yes, it is true, God --- in grace, can live inside a person, but that which is inside us is not FILLED with God's grace. Therefore, we do not interpret knowledge of Him strictly on our own novel opinions, but as far as it is, and has always been, the teachings handed down by Christ through his Apostles. God, in His PERSON as a whole Being, is TRANSCENDENT, not immanent. Yes, it is true that God manifests Himself in the human modality (in nature and within man), afterall, we are HIS creation, but He is NOT His creation. We are not God. God doesn't even need a popular democratic vote from His creatures to give Him His thought on any subject. Truth is entirely whole whether or not we even exist.

Now, for some references on what I've written:
Just so there is no confusion, as immanists would like to confuse you to thinking that their philosophy is merely that good can manifest Himself in His creation. No, they take it further to say that He is entirely in His creation. Just look at the root word of immanent:


www.thefreedictionary.com

www.merriam-webster.com

The meaning of Maundautum (from whence the word "Maundy" is derived) means: command or mandate. Jesus washed the feet of the Apostles only not because he only wanted priests to serve, but this was specifically because he wanted to instruct the priests of their specific duty to serve as priests. www.audiosancto.org


A suggested article: www.latinmassmagazine.com


Ray, you are saying, "This treatise doesn't address the more important issues facing the Church" and that people who are shocked by this (if it really occured) are dismayed by the Pope's actions. This isn't attacking the Pope. This is about understanding what IS important and why it is important. Precisely because we care about poverty, especially spiritual poverty, and the sacrileous and murderous effects of that spiritual poverty so rampant in today's society all over the globe, we want to protect ourselves from supernatural death and sin. Only God has the power to free us from supernatural death, and He gives the priest the authority to bring us the Sacraments which aide to this end. The moment we no longer have priests, or are confused as to Christ's authority in the priesthood as HE created it, we no longer have the Sacraments. The Sacraments are holy and sacred, and are perfect in of themselves. The imperfection and lack is not in God or His Sacraments, but in the disposition of the recipients. Therefore, all evil, including, all effects of sin besides sin itself, not only require to be each pardoned (as with the Sacrament of Penance/Confession, but they need to be remitted through restitution. Part of that restitution is Christ in his Holy Sacrafice. That is why he instituted the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass --- because this needed to be continued. He needed to continue to sacrifice himself at the altar, not once, not a hundred times, but at every single time a valid Mass would be celebrated. Likewise, the priest is another victim for Christ, in order that disorder become re-ordered to Christ.

We need to regain a sense of the transcendent, and humble ourselves as CHRIST, to see that He is the one true offering at the altar of every Mass. Anything else we offer is only to be joined to Christ's offering. But our duties are not equal to that of the priest. The priest MUST be another Christ, and see not only charity is required to all out of love of Christ, but that the highest charity is God Himself, who HIMSELF gives us the order in this life of the holy priesthood, in order to stand in the place of Christ. WE, the faithful, have to be LED by the priest, he is not to make himself in his God-given vocation as EQUAL in his STATE, but higher because he must be the leader UNDER Christ. If a priest is seen as equal, then the smallest of the small will not need to follow him, but whomever they please, even themselves. Then the lambs would be scattered, each to their own way.

We have lost a sense of the transcendent, and the idea of worship, that it is to God alone. NOTHING we can do can be greater than what HE does for us. Nothing. No feelings, no matter how high, no intentions, no matter how great, are to even be compared to God.

The liturgy matters. The old saying goes, "Lex Orandi. Lex Credendi." but the rest of it is, "Lex Vivendi."

How we pray, determines how we believe, which then determines how we live.

You may think that good intentions are enough, but if they are separated from God's Holy Will, they bring about the greatest destruction and poverty --- that of the soul. You may think that this world is greater, in some cases, has more weight that the next, but you are then blaspheming if you say so. Christ came showing himself to be of a kingdom NOT of THIS WORLD.

The liturgy is meant to remind us of this and of the order that Christ instituted for this world to do as HE wills.





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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Edward-4511 said: Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin's comments: www.ncregister.com.
(Quote) Edward-4511 said: Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin's comments: www.ncregister.com

For me, one of the biggest takeaways from Jimmy's article is near the end, where he mentions that the foot washing ritual was added to the Holy Thursday ritual in ***1955***. So in terms of church history, it is very new; it has not been done this way since "time immemorial"; and thus we should be open to change in the way it is done and how we interpret it. My 2 cents.
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It was part of the Holy Thursday Liturgy long before 1955.

As an Altar boy in the 40's I assisted at the services.

Thursday of Holy week is also called Maundy Thursday. Maundy refers specifically to the Washing of the feet. It has been part of the Holy Thursday rituals since ancient times.

See the Catholic encyclopedia.

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Mar 29th 2013 new

The Washing of the Feet is traditionally understood of Christ's command specifically to the role of the priest. Yes, Jesus also had commanded ust to love him, and to love our neighbors as ourselves, but this particular action of Christ was to show priests their God-given role. 'What difference does it make whose feet the priest washes on Maundy Thursday, if the priest is to serve others?' The difference is that only a man can become another priest, not a woman or child. It is representative of the priesthood. That is why the Church prefers boys at the altar for service and not girls, and girls are explained to be an exception when boys are not available, but even this is only in the New Order Mass, not the traditional Extraordinary Rite of the Mass.

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