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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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03/29/2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: It was part of the Holy Thursday Liturgy long before 1955. As an Altar boy in the ...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

It was part of the Holy Thursday Liturgy long before 1955.

As an Altar boy in the 40's I assisted at the services.

Thursday of Holy week is also called Maundy Thursday. Maundy refers specifically to the Washing of the feet. It has been part of the Holy Thursday rituals since ancient times.

See the Catholic encyclopedia.

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LOL. Yes, Paul!
Anyway, what the nerve is an "Apologist" really anyway? These former Protestant Apologists are cropping up everywhere. Ask Jimmy what an apologist is, go ahead, I dare you. Ask anyone of his Catholic Answers buddies the same. They get real defensive. They realize that the average Catholic has no idea that theology even exists, let alone what it is, so they (these ex-protestants which carry some of their old ideas with them most of the time) replaced the role of an orthodox theologian with Apologist. This way, no one really has to discuss seriously theology do make their point, and they can be creative in their opinions and make them sound convicing, especially when at least PART of what they are saying is accurate. Jimmy is not exactly a staunch defender of extrinsic tradition. I've had it out with him when he promoted the idea the Jesus may have had brothers by St. Joseph. How did he come to this? By promoting the alleged "Ossury of James" --- which he never disclosed was already PROVEN to be a fraud, and the so-called, self-declared "anthropologists" (a Jew and a Wesleyan that made the Catholic University circuits to try to dismantle Catholic theology from a false, 'scientific' perspective --- this is the BAS group, and all this is researchable and easily verified) had already publicly admitted to it being a fraud. But hey, that wasn't exactly a press release that the mainstream media was jumping on, more like, jumping away from.

Honestly, I don't even want to bother reading anything from Jimmy, or his buddies that he 'trained' to be "apologists" in his two-week, self-created course (i.e., his buddy, the other "Jim(my)".

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03/29/2013 new

They are giving you poison in palletable drops, drop by drop. If you tasted the dish they intend to serve you down the road, you would gag. Some of us see where this is headed.

Some (not Apologists) orthodox (not in the greek sense) theologians that are True to both the intrinsic and extrinsic teachings of the Church (more recent ones, relatively speaking, in bold):

Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange

St. Alphonsus Liguori (Doctor of the Church,and notice, saint as well)

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

Jean-Louis Chrétien


St. Ireneus (a Church Father -- read "Against the Heresies")


St. Ignatius of Antioch (another Church Father --- where we get the definition of what it means for something to be a "Catholic" truth (kato licas)

Pope St. Pius the X (no, you won't become a member of the SSPX if you read his writings. The Church declared him a saint, and not by accident. Recommended reads (but you must find them online, because Paulist Press decided to no longer print any encyclical before Vatican II, no matter how important it is to the Church even if there were tons of ex-cathedra statements and declared anathemas --- Read "Pascendi Dominici Gregis" and "Lamentabili Sane")




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03/29/2013 new

I agree with you. What the Holy Father is trying to demonstrate to us is H U M I L I T Y.

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03/29/2013 new

[quote]Naomi-698107 said: "If in two years, the Pope allows ordination of women, okay then I'll come back in here and admit I was wrong. And then I'll go join the Orthodox, or become an atheist."

Don't go athiest!
Joining the Orthodox, there is the chance to marry a seminarian, and he can still go on and become a priest. Please don't threaten us with converting to atheism, we know you feel God's love.

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03/29/2013 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: It was part of the Holy Thursday Liturgy long before 1955. As an Altar boy in the 40's I assi...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

It was part of the Holy Thursday Liturgy long before 1955.

As an Altar boy in the 40's I assisted at the services.

Thursday of Holy week is also called Maundy Thursday. Maundy refers specifically to the Washing of the feet. It has been part of the Holy Thursday rituals since ancient times.

See the Catholic encyclopedia.

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Thanks Paul. It was brought to my attention elsewhere that before 1955, the foot washing ritual was held separate from the Mass, something Mr. Akin failed to mention. (I mistyped Holy Thursday ritual when I meant the Mass.)
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03/29/2013 new

Regardless of what one feels, truth exists. Every saint suffered, even from those closest to him or her, and especially from them, and even from those within the Church *(learn about the real life of St. Francis --- he wasn't merely about corporal works of mercy, but he was tough on orthodoxy and keeping the order by keeping traditions within the Church --- which made him enemies within the Church). But no saint ever left the Church.

Pope Francis says that the Cross does not firstly resemble truth but charity, but is strange because it almost seems to pitt truth against charity, as if you are strong on truth of God's teachings, you will lack in charity. The Spirit of the Truth is not without the Spirit of Charity, and one does not altar or contradict the other. No, I am not more Catholic than the Pope, but this has always been the teachings of the Church, what I am telling you now.

The point Pope Francis is making deliberately is to stress the imporance of service, but service is not the highest good, nor is supposed to be separated from the Sacraments. The highest good is God Himself, and the supernatural life of grace in the theological virtues (supernatural faith, hope and charity) come FROM them, not apart from them. There is this order that comes from God, with the life of graces, including charity, which must come from the means that God gives us --- the Sacraments. To put acts of service above these is against Christ and His Holy Bride. The institution of the Holy Eucharist is above service in order, because acts of service must flow from the graces of Holy Eucharist. If we lose this understanding, we become pray to gnositicsm.

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03/29/2013 new

Good Friday

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03/29/2013 new

Can any dead person give an act of charity to another that is living? No! Of course not!
But our Lord, Jesus Christ says, "Unless you eat of my body... you do not have LIFE in you." But we are also warned by the Holy Ghost from St. Paul, that those who eat not discerning the Body of Christ bring condemnation on their own souls.

Charity begins with Christ, and the means is via his Sacraments. If we place Christ's Sacraments on par or even below the dignity of good works, then we are inferring or saying (deliberately or unintentionally) that Christ is immanent. Is this dangerous? You better believe it is. It opens the flood gates to all kinds of heresies. No one but someone who is called a "conservative" pope can bring about this type of confusion, because if he were openly considered "modernist" or "liberal", those Catholics who are already lacking knowledge of the some essential theology would be able to more readily detect what is happening and they would refuse it. Would any of you accept if the Pope did away with the Sacraments? He IS Pope, is he not? Of course you would not go for that. Would you accept if he directly stated that works of charity are greater than the Sacraments? No, you wouldn't be fooled by that, if he directly stated that.

Let me share with you, that many bishops and cardinals believe that, and only have Monsignors around them and other folk that also believe that. Are they still bishops and cardinals? Yes, of course, but do they have the God-given authority to say whatever they want? No. Their authority comes from God, and what they say by their words and actions must defend what God has already taught the Church, without confusion, without contradiction of one teaching vs. another. See, heresy is not merely going against the truth, it is taking a truth that is known and bending it disproportionately until it is against other truths. One of the biggest in modernism is immanentism.

This is why we have beautiful cathedrals, statuary, and gold leafed altars, and gold chalices, etc., because it is God who we are celebrating from whom all good things come. It is He who gives us the supernatural life through the SACRAMENTS, and the ability to do the works that He desires as HE wills. Our works are not greater than His at the altar of every Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That is why we have to be careful to honor our Lord's sacrifice with the greatest of possible dignity we can afford, in order that we not be poor spiritually, and thereby can later bring Christ to others, both in the one Spirit of truth and charity.





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03/29/2013 new

Hi Shara,


This will be quick as I have to get off to Good Friday service at noon. I think that I'll have more to write later.


I definitely agree with you (about Pope Francis) that "He is saying something!!!!"..... And I do believe that this was planned (as you wrote).


For those you who see the gesture of Pope Francis washing the feet of girls/women as some sort of signal that Francis desires that women may become priests some day, I think that they are way off the mark. I believe, as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, that this has been a settled manner for many years now. Pope JPII said exactly that. I don't expect this to change in 50, 100, 1000 or 2000 years.


A few other things.... I will get to later.


Ed

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03/29/2013 new
(Quote) Ray-566531 said: This treatise doesn't address the more important issues facing the Church. I believe that attacking the Pope ...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

This treatise doesn't address the more important issues facing the Church. I believe that attacking the Pope over this will bring about more criticism from others. They will easily interpret this as Catholics fighting among themselves. It will not bring about new friends, but will fortify the Church's enemies.



There are bigger dragons to slay, wouldn't you agree?



Also, it doesn't mention that this rubric has gone out of fashion as far back as the 1950's. It's outdated. Now that it's been brought to the forefront, it will likely be changed. You are, no doubt, aware that permission can be granted by a bishop for exceptions, and that the pope serves as the Bishop of Rome. He can give himself permission.



What kind of example are we setting by attacking a humble man wanting to be of service. The mark of a true leader is that he/she is actually a servant to the people. I interpret his actions to reflect this. On Good Friday, it would serve us well to reflect upon the life of Jesus and how He served His flock -- to the ultimate degree.

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Lets give the pope some time.---As I said before--I joined the church in the late 80s--and I have seen huge changes for the better. I dont see danger in the church at all at this point.
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