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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Athanasius

Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Lynea-297530 said: Can any dead person give an act of charity to another that is living? No! Of course not!But o...
(Quote) Lynea-297530 said:

Can any dead person give an act of charity to another that is living? No! Of course not!
But our Lord, Jesus Christ says, "Unless you eat of my body... you do not have LIFE in you." But we are also warned by the Holy Ghost from St. Paul, that those who eat not discerning the Body of Christ bring condemnation on their own souls.

Charity begins with Christ, and the means is via his Sacraments. If we place Christ's Sacraments on par or even below the dignity of good works, then we are inferring or saying (deliberately or unintentionally) that Christ is immanent. Is this dangerous? You better believe it is. It opens the flood gates to all kinds of heresies. No one but someone who is called a "conservative" pope can bring about this type of confusion, because if he were openly considered "modernist" or "liberal", those Catholics who are already lacking knowledge of the some essential theology would be able to more readily detect what is happening and they would refuse it. Would any of you accept if the Pope did away with the Sacraments? He IS Pope, is he not? Of course you would not go for that. Would you accept if he directly stated that works of charity are greater than the Sacraments? No, you wouldn't be fooled by that, if he directly stated that.

Let me share with you, that many bishops and cardinals believe that, and only have Monsignors around them and other folk that also believe that. Are they still bishops and cardinals? Yes, of course, but do they have the God-given authority to say whatever they want? No. Their authority comes from God, and what they say by their words and actions must defend what God has already taught the Church, without confusion, without contradiction of one teaching vs. another. See, heresy is not merely going against the truth, it is taking a truth that is known and bending it disproportionately until it is against other truths. One of the biggest in modernism is immanentism.

This is why we have beautiful cathedrals, statuary, and gold leafed altars, and gold chalices, etc., because it is God who we are celebrating from whom all good things come. It is He who gives us the supernatural life through the SACRAMENTS, and the ability to do the works that He desires as HE wills. Our works are not greater than His at the altar of every Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That is why we have to be careful to honor our Lord's sacrifice with the greatest of possible dignity we can afford, in order that we not be poor spiritually, and thereby can later bring Christ to others, both in the one Spirit of truth and charity.

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Your first sentence is in error.A dead person in purgatory can do nothing to hasten the end of their purgation. But they are still able, as members of the body of Christ, to offer prayers for the living.

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Mar 29th 2013 new
(Quote) Lynea-297530 said: Can any dead person give an act of charity to another that is living? No! Of course not!But our Lord, Je...
(Quote) Lynea-297530 said:

Can any dead person give an act of charity to another that is living? No! Of course not!
But our Lord, Jesus Christ says, "Unless you eat of my body... you do not have LIFE in you." But we are also warned by the Holy Ghost from St. Paul, that those who eat not discerning the Body of Christ bring condemnation on their own souls.

Charity begins with Christ, and the means is via his Sacraments. If we place Christ's Sacraments on par or even below the dignity of good works, then we are inferring or saying (deliberately or unintentionally) that Christ is immanent. Is this dangerous? You better believe it is. It opens the flood gates to all kinds of heresies. No one but someone who is called a "conservative" pope can bring about this type of confusion, because if he were openly considered "modernist" or "liberal", those Catholics who are already lacking knowledge of the some essential theology would be able to more readily detect what is happening and they would refuse it. Would any of you accept if the Pope did away with the Sacraments? He IS Pope, is he not? Of course you would not go for that. Would you accept if he directly stated that works of charity are greater than the Sacraments? No, you wouldn't be fooled by that, if he directly stated that.



Let me share with you, that many bishops and cardinals believe that, and only have Monsignors around them and other folk that also believe that. Are they still bishops and cardinals? Yes, of course, but do they have the God-given authority to say whatever they want? No. Their authority comes from God, and what they say by their words and actions must defend what God has already taught the Church, without confusion, without contradiction of one teaching vs. another. See, heresy is not merely going against the truth, it is taking a truth that is known and bending it disproportionately until it is against other truths. One of the biggest in modernism is immanentism.





This is why we have beautiful cathedrals, statuary, and gold leafed altars, and gold chalices, etc., because it is God who we are celebrating from whom all good things come. It is He who gives us the supernatural life through the SACRAMENTS, and the ability to do the works that He desires as HE wills. Our works are not greater than His at the altar of every Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That is why we have to be careful to honor our Lord's sacrifice with the greatest of possible dignity we can afford, in order that we not be poor spiritually, and thereby can later bring Christ to others, both in the one Spirit of truth and charity.











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Lynea---I think a lot of people have life in them that dont 'eat of the body' of Christ in the sacraments.

We as catholics have a great gift in being able to directly partake in the body of Christ. But non-catholic christians and those of other religions have the life of Christ in them every time they do a heartfelt good work or love their child or parent or friend or stranger--because all love comes from and thru The Son.
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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: (Quote) Lynea-297530 said: Can any dead person give an act of charity to an...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Quote:
Lynea-297530 said:

Can any dead person give an act of charity to another that is living? No! Of course not!
But our Lord, Jesus Christ says, "Unless you eat of my body... you do not have LIFE in you." But we are also warned by the Holy Ghost from St. Paul, that those who eat not discerning the Body of Christ bring condemnation on their own souls.

Charity begins with Christ, and the means is via his Sacraments. If we place Christ's Sacraments on par or even below the dignity of good works, then we are inferring or saying (deliberately or unintentionally) that Christ is immanent. Is this dangerous? You better believe it is. It opens the flood gates to all kinds of heresies. No one but someone who is called a "conservative" pope can bring about this type of confusion, because if he were openly considered "modernist" or "liberal", those Catholics who are already lacking knowledge of the some essential theology would be able to more readily detect what is happening and they would refuse it. Would any of you accept if the Pope did away with the Sacraments? He IS Pope, is he not? Of course you would not go for that. Would you accept if he directly stated that works of charity are greater than the Sacraments? No, you wouldn't be fooled by that, if he directly stated that.

Let me share with you, that many bishops and cardinals believe that, and only have Monsignors around them and other folk that also believe that. Are they still bishops and cardinals? Yes, of course, but do they have the God-given authority to say whatever they want? No. Their authority comes from God, and what they say by their words and actions must defend what God has already taught the Church, without confusion, without contradiction of one teaching vs. another. See, heresy is not merely going against the truth, it is taking a truth that is known and bending it disproportionately until it is against other truths. One of the biggest in modernism is immanentism.

This is why we have beautiful cathedrals, statuary, and gold leafed altars, and gold chalices, etc., because it is God who we are celebrating from whom all good things come. It is He who gives us the supernatural life through the SACRAMENTS, and the ability to do the works that He desires as HE wills. Our works are not greater than His at the altar of every Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That is why we have to be careful to honor our Lord's sacrifice with the greatest of possible dignity we can afford, in order that we not be poor spiritually, and thereby can later bring Christ to others, both in the one Spirit of truth and charity.


Your first sentence is in error.A dead person in purgatory can do nothing to hasten the end of their purgation. But they are still able, as members of the body of Christ, to offer prayers for the living.

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Can the poor souls pray for us?

"Generally, we must say, “no” the poor souls cannot pray for us. In the ordinary course of things, the poor souls are neither in the state to pray in our behalf, nor have they knowledge of our needs or our prayers."

"However, there is no reason to think that God could not grant special dispensations to certain of the poor souls at times. Thus it was that, according to the testimony of several saints, some poor souls have heard and answered the prayers of the living."

"Still, this is not in the norm and the Church does not at this time recommend a regular habit of asking for the prayers and intercession of the poor souls. Rather, especially in the month of November, we are to recall our duty to pray for them – certainly, the soul which is freed from purgatory by our prayers, will not fail to reward us with many blessings."

"Requiem aeternam dona eis Domine. Et lux perpetua luceat eis. Requiescant in pace. Amen."

Posted by Father Ryan Erlenbush newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com

Labels:Purgatory,Sacred Doctrine,Saint Thomas Aquinas

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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Tom-112790 said: Lynea---I think a lot of people have life in them that dont 'eat of the body' of C...
(Quote) Tom-112790 said:

Lynea---I think a lot of people have life in them that dont 'eat of the body' of Christ in the sacraments.

We as catholics have a great gift in being able to directly partake in the body of Christ. But non-catholic christians and those of other religions have the life of Christ in them every time they do a heartfelt good work or love their child or parent or friend or stranger--because all love comes from and thru The Son.
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Gospel of John Chap 6:

54 Then Jesus said to them: "Amen, amen I say to you: Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you."

56 *For my flesh, is meat indeed: and my blood, is drink indeed:

57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.

58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.

59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and died. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.

60 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

61 Many, therefore, of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it?

62 But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you?

63 If then you shall see *the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.

65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that did not believe, and who he was that would betray him.

66 And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father.

67 After this many of his disciples went back: and walked no more with him.

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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Your first sentence is in error.A dead person in purgatory can do nothing to hasten the e...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Your first sentence is in error.A dead person in purgatory can do nothing to hasten the end of their purgation. But they are still able, as members of the body of Christ, to offer prayers for the living.

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Paul, where do you get your theology?

Tom, I take Jesus Christ at his word.


Bernard, thank you, brother.

www.audiosancto.org

www.audiosancto.org


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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Lynea-297530 said: Paul, where do you get your theology? Tom, I take Jesus Christ at his word. Be...
(Quote) Lynea-297530 said:

Paul, where do you get your theology?

Tom, I take Jesus Christ at his word.


Bernard, thank you, brother.

www.audiosancto.org

www.audiosancto.org

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Paul, the souls in purgatory, it is often believed (which I believe), can pray for others, but they do not know for whom they pray. This a traditional belief. Souls in purgatory cannot merit. Only people who are living can merit. Their prayers are not considered by Holy Mother Church as "acts of charity" or spiritual acts of mercy. Those are only done by the living who can still potentially receive merit. I specify 'potentially' as one must be in a state of grace (in other words, they must have supernatural life within them, as opposed to being in a state of moral sin, or unbaptised), in order to merit for others. Those who are NOT in a state of grace (speaking of the living) can still pray for others, but Holy Mother Church teaches that their prayers, no matter how ardent and well-intended, only can be to win themselves actual graces, which is intended by God to bring them to supernatural life of sanctifying grace, which we know are through the Sacraments of the Church.

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Mar 29th 2013 new

Oh dear, I may need to clarify, the souls in purgatory have died in a state in grace, because no one outside of this santifying life can even get to Purgatory (without some miracle at the moment of their death, which is between God and that soul, but is believed to be extraordinary, not ordinary, if you truly follow Christ's words and His Holy Bride's teachings which come handed down from him). But the Poor Souls cannot merit for themselves or for anyone else. Their restitution is by fire, which doesn't consume them but does, in fact, burn out the impurities/imperfections of the soul.

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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Rosemarie-744159 said: Agree! I would rather follow God's rule: "love in action", than an...
(Quote) Rosemarie-744159 said:


Agree! I would rather follow God's rule: "love in action", than any man-made rubrics.

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Rosemarie, I am sure you are just not very knowledgeable yet on the liturgy.


Take the Washing of the Feet, that is not "man-made". JESUS CHRIST is not a man in his personhood. He is man in his nature, along with his other nature, divine. WHO Jesus Christ is, his personhood, He is God the Son, Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity.
Who is Jesus?
Answer: Jesus is God the Son.

What is Jesus? God or Man?

Answer: Jesus has two nature's: one divine and one human, both hypostatically united.


Love is defined by Love Himself. True love/charity is FIRST love of God, and secondly love of neighbor out of love of God, and in that order, since any and all true good comes from God.


If anyone knowing says that the Jesus is only a man, therefore, we need not follow his religion, they are blaspheming God. But I realize that probably is not the case here. Just a simple, common misunderstanding from a very common lack of knowledge about the Catholic faith.

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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Lynea-297530 said: They are giving you poison in palletable drops, drop by drop. If you tasted the dish they intend ...
(Quote) Lynea-297530 said:

They are giving you poison in palletable drops, drop by drop. If you tasted the dish they intend to serve you down the road, you would gag. Some of us see where this is headed.

Some (not Apologists) orthodox (not in the greek sense) theologians that are True to both the intrinsic and extrinsic teachings of the Church (more recent ones, relatively speaking, in bold):

Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange

St. Alphonsus Liguori (Doctor of the Church,and notice, saint as well)

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

Jean-Louis Chrétien


St. Ireneus (a Church Father -- read "Against the Heresies")


St. Ignatius of Antioch (another Church Father --- where we get the definition of what it means for something to be a "Catholic" truth (kato licas)

Pope St. Pius the X (no, you won't become a member of the SSPX if you read his writings. The Church declared him a saint, and not by accident. Recommended reads (but you must find them online, because Paulist Press decided to no longer print any encyclical before Vatican II, no matter how important it is to the Church even if there were tons of ex-cathedra statements and declared anathemas --- Read "Pascendi Dominici Gregis" and "Lamentabili Sane")




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Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's works were condemned by the Holy See in the Fifties, and after his death his works were forbidden to be kept in the libraries of religious orders. Prominent Catholic theologians and philosophers agreed that Chardin's work was a perversion of the Faith, including Dietrich von Hilderbrand, Jacques Maritain, and Étienne Gilson.

en.wikipedia.org

Indeed, many of Chardin's ideas were condemned by Pius XII in his encyclical Humani Generis.

www.vatican.va

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Mar 29th 2013 new
Okay, normally I am a complete traditionalist....rather opting for altar boys and not girls and the Latin Mass and the mantle. However, Pope Francis was doing this to make a statement. He knows that traditionally they use men and I don't think he is trying to make everyone get in a fight over symbolism. However, it is not a hard and fast rule that it has to be men. I mean, only men were present at the last supper, but clearly women receive communion also. I think the fact that it was men present has little to do with what Christ was trying to say. If it did....the church would have recognized that fact and never allowed women to fill that role to begin with. I think this is one of those instance where the Pope and Bishops know the rules by heart and are allowed to break them as long as it doesn't put in danger any doctrines or dogma's. In fact, I find this more acceptable than girl altar servers. Because there are many, many more reasons for having boy altar servers than simply...."Well, it was MEN who were present".
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