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A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: I understand the point that Jesus was making. But he made it a point to only include the men. H...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

I understand the point that Jesus was making. But he made it a point to only include the men. He had plenty of women followers and didn't wash their feet. Everything Christ did was for us and we should follow his examples.
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Men didn't touch women they were not married to in those days, as a rule. . . it was a cultural matter.

Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) William-607613 said: Paul,Your scholarship in this area is well past mine, so for the sake of th...
(Quote) William-607613 said:




Paul,

Your scholarship in this area is well past mine, so for the sake of this post I will assume that what you are saying is true.

I am sure you would concede that the Church is facing no small crisis today with Catholics everywhere (but particularly in the West) shrugging their shoulders and doing whatever they want, despite what the Church teaches; this includes clergy, who routinely adjust the rubrics of the Mass to suit their whim or the whims of the parishioners.

Would you not concede that if the Pope was able to do this as you say, it would have been far better for the Vatican to release a prepared statement either beforehand or immediately upon completion of the Mass with the warning that the Pope's actions are not to be taken as permission for priests and bishops everywhere to do the same? Must these issues always fall on the shoulders of concerned lay people?

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I agree---let the laity run the business side of the Church, but with transparency, at the local parish. My council is as secretive as 007,

Apr 3rd 2013 new
(Quote) Peter-449116 said: "VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis has won over many hearts and minds with his simple style and focus...
(Quote) Peter-449116 said:

"VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis has won over many hearts and minds with his simple style and focus on serving the world's poorest, but he has devastated traditionalist Catholics who adored his predecessor, Benedict XVI, for restoring much of the traditional pomp to the papacy.



Francis' decision to disregard church law and wash the feet of two girls — a Serbian Muslim and an Italian Catholic — during a Holy Thursday ritual has become something of the final straw, evidence that Francis has little or no interest in one of the key priorities of Benedict's papacy: reviving the pre-Vatican II traditions of the Catholic Church."



www.wfaa.com

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"The text of Pope Francis' general audience: Feminists and proponents of women's ordination aren't gonna be happy."

wdtprs.com
Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) William-607613 said: Paul,All of this is true but every institution in the world has adminis...
(Quote) William-607613 said:





Paul,

All of this is true but every institution in the world has administrative procedures in place for policing its own; that these procedures are necessary to maintain order in that institution (government, business, military, you name it) is something we all know and agree on. We don't all know the rules and the regulations we are supposed to follow; it has always been the role of the "graybeards" to guide us in the right direction. (We don't ask much of the clergy in this day and age, Paul. We really don't.)

In this situation, you have the laity pointing out to the hierarchy that something is amiss. And the laity has been doing this for some fifty years.


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And for fifty years before that, the laity was telling the hiearchy that something was amiss. They got most of what thery asked for and now the laity with the same mind set are saying the same thing.

Still, not a single word of Dogma or Doctrine has changed over the last 2000+ years. The Mass is still the Mass, whether or not you like the ritual as it is performed.

The Church still stumbles along, as it has for 2000+ years, with normal human beings who fail and rise up again. The same ancient herecies raise their ugly heads again and again.

Yet the Church survives and will continue to do so with the protection of the Holy Spirit.

The Church has always, is now and forever into the future will be in need of renewal.

Without chaging one iota of dogma or doctrine, the Church has adapted itself to the societies and cultures in which it finds itself. And it will continue to do so until the end of time.

Throughout history, since Christ Ascended into heaven, He or the Blessed Virgin as well as all the Saints throughout the ages, always and continually call for the same things; pray, do penance, Love God and our neighbor. The message has not changed, nor will it.

Still, the single most important rule applies, treat your own waywardness. Obey the Commanments and live your life as modeled by Christ Himself. The rest will take care of itself. In the words of St. Francis, "Lord help me accept the things I cannot change, to change the things I can and the wisdon to know the difference."

So we should all stop titlting at meaningless and non-essential windmills and live our lives in Christ.

Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) Pat-5351 said: I think there is a big difference between being all worried in week 3 what Pope Francis will do about...
(Quote) Pat-5351 said:

I think there is a big difference between being all worried in week 3 what Pope Francis will do about the Latin mass (i.e. not continue to encourage it like Pope Benedict did), and what kind of example he will set concerning matters of liturgy.

I myself am bothered by the Holy Thursday events, for this reason: the rubrics say it is supposed to be 12 men.

www.usccb.org

Yes the Pope is the ultimate authority and he does not have to get anyone's permission (as any other church/diocese is supposed to do on this issue, as pointed out above). But the problem for me is that he sets an example by everything he does (just the same way he sets an example of humility and poverty by riding the bus, and living in 2 rooms instead of the papal apartment) and the example he set on Holy Thursday is implicitly giving a big OKAY to this practice.

I will bet $500 that next Holy Thursday that there are many more churches (than there are already doing this without any permission) taking up this practice, and pastors having to listen to parishioners say "why can't we", and capitulating, and that to me is not okay. By one "example" he opened up the floodgate on this practice that is contrary to the rubrics.

There are reasons for rules and rubrics, and I think the Pope should be the one to always enforce those, not make an exception for himself and thereby setting an example of noncompliance (without permission, for everyone besides him). I don't think it is a good idea.

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The rubrics do not specify the number of men who should have their feet washed. The document you cite specifically says, exactly what I said, that the purpose of the ritual is to show that the duty of the priest, as it is for all of us, is to serve others. It further allows for the feet of both men and women to be washed.

I further pointed out, that a few years ago, Cardinal O'Malley of Boston specdifically asked the Vatican whether or not it was permitted to include women in the ritual. The official reply from the Vatican was that it is permissable.

The document you cite says so. So the variance from the rubrics has existed for a quite a while and Pope Francis did nothing outside of the rules.

And still there is one important rule that has precedance. It is the right and duty of the Bishop of a Diocese to specify how the liturgy is performed publicly in their Diocese. So no Pastor can willy nilly allow women into the ritual without the approval of their Bishop.

Apr 3rd 2013 new

Paul, as you point out, Cardinal O'Malley asked to do it.

Pope Francis didn't have to ask anyone; he is the pope, and as the Bishop of Rome, he doesn't have to ask any permission.

Yes, the practice is permissible. That requires an "ask" and permission to be granted.

I am absolutely certain that in many of the parishes where this has been done they never got permission from the bishop, nor has the bishop asked for permission from Rome.

I am just saying in that in liturgical matters, all kinds of "doing whatever we want" is going on, and will continue to go on, and may go on more, in part ude to this one event.

Apr 3rd 2013 new

This is interesting; didn't know about the new translation changes:

The rubric found in the Sacrementary used to read:

"Depending on pastoral circumstance, the washing of feet follows the homily. The men who have been chosen (viri selecti) are led by the ministers to chairs prepared at a suitable place. Then the priest (removing his chasuble if necessary) goes to each man. With the help of the ministers he pours water over each one's feet and dries them." The new translation of the Roman Missal contain the same directive:

"The men who have been chosen are led by the ministers to seats prepared in a suitable place. Then the Priest (removing his chasuble if necessary) goes to each one, and, with the help of the ministers, pours water over each one’s feet and then dries them." The Latin for "the men who have been chosen" is "viri selecti." It is important to note that while "men" can be read in English as mankind, the Latin word viri cannot be similarly generalized. Its meaning means unambiguously male persons. The Latin word homo could have been used to indicate a gender-neutral "mankind," but it was not. The rubric is clear; only men should have their feet washed by the priest so as to give the faithful. Source: causafinitaest.blogspot.com
Apr 3rd 2013 new
(Quote) Lynn-189934 said: Men didn't touch women they were not married to in those days, as a rule. . . it was a c...
(Quote) Lynn-189934 said:




Men didn't touch women they were not married to in those days, as a rule. . . it was a cultural matter.

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Jesus is God and is therefore about all human law and customs. He made that clear when the Pharisees tested him repeatedly. If he wanted to include women in this, he would not have let this custom stop him.
Apr 3rd 2013 new

A good example of what you're saying is Our Lord speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well. At that time, men didn't speak casually with women who weren't in their families...and certainly Jewish men did not speak to Samaritan women. This was an example of a man-made custom that Our Lord did not favor, and so did not abide by.

Apr 3rd 2013 new
(Quote) Monica-730858 said: Jesus is God and is therefore about all human law and customs. He made that clear when the Pharisees test...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

Jesus is God and is therefore about all human law and customs. He made that clear when the Pharisees tested him repeatedly. If he wanted to include women in this, he would not have let this custom stop him.
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*above* not about
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