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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

Apr 10th 2013 new

(Quote) Peter-449116 said: I'll grant you that Paul, I haven't either. It's certainly not a sure thing with your...
(Quote) Peter-449116 said:

I'll grant you that Paul, I haven't either. It's certainly not a sure thing with yours truly! You missed my point though- we don't have to be arrogant about our faith- we will not attract converts by insulting them.

Peace

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Short, sweet, and very appealing, Peter!!!

Apr 10th 2013 new

This is an interesting thread. Catholics vs. Catholics. Divide and conquer. So much for unity. And we wonder about the Protestants? I can just imagine Jesus shaking His head over all of this....

Apr 10th 2013 new

This is an interesting thread. Catholics vs. Catholics. Divide and conquer. So much for unity. And we wonder about the Protestants? I can just imagine Jesus shaking His head over all of this....

Apr 10th 2013 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said: This is an interesting thread. Catholics vs. Catholics. Divide and conquer. So much for unity. And ...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

This is an interesting thread. Catholics vs. Catholics. Divide and conquer. So much for unity. And we wonder about the Protestants? I can just imagine Jesus shaking His head over all of this....

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His hope and the desired hope of all His people is that we one day all be unified...and we will whether we like it or not. In His infinite mercy, He will pour out graces of conversion even in the end times. We will be united in heaven because we’re too stupid and proud to get it together on earth. We can’t judge anyone else on how much they do for God or what the quality of their faith is. Chances are He isn't going to show you what He requires of someone else, just what He requires of you. In the end, it is our personal relationship with Him that matters, I and God, you and God. The question is, did we truly love one another despite the differences?

Apr 10th 2013 new
(Quote) John-336509 said: Unfortunately, I think you make a very good point here. Catechises has not bee...
(Quote) John-336509 said:





Unfortunately, I think you make a very good point here. Catechises has not been our strong point during my lifetime, and that means we need to be very careful about low-level ecumenical activities.

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That's a good part of the reason I harp on the Reform of the Reform. Having Mass celebrated in the same manner as a liturgical Protestant service gives the uneducated laity the subconscious message that there isn't any difference between the Mass and a Lutheran service. Or in some extreme cases Pentecostal or Nondenominational worship.

Catholic worship should be outwardly different because liturgical theology says the Mass is an earthly representation of the heavenly reality described in the Book of Revelation, which is why traditional Catholic worship has traditionally emphasized beauty and things that weren't ordinary.

www.piercedhearts.org

Protestant worship by contrast is a community event focused on the worship of the absent Christ and it's entertainment value. It is a conscious rejection of Catholic worship.

Their's an old saying, "The law of prayer is the law of faith." Or how you pray determines how you believe.

I'd rather ape the Eastern Orthodox who share our theology of worship than Protestants whose worship derives from their rejection of the Mass.
Apr 11th 2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: John,I think you are presuming much.This is a forum for those people wh...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



John,

I think you are presuming much.

This is a forum for those people who profess to be Catholic. I am not writing in it to those who profess to be protestant.

To display what is true in text is not being snobby or arrogant.

I will merely direct you to what Pope Pius XI taught in the modern document Mortalium Animos in regard to this subject:

"These pan-Christians who turn their minds to uniting the churches seem, indeed, to pursue the noblest of ideas in promoting charity among all Christians: nevertheless how does it happen that this charity tends to injure faith? Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment "Love one another," altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt version of Christ's teaching: "If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you."[18] For which reason, since charity is based on a complete and sincere faith, the disciples of Christ must be united principally by the bond of one faith. Who then can conceive a Christian Federation, the members of which retain each his own opinions and private judgment, even in matters which concern the object of faith, even though they be repugnant to the opinions of the rest? And in what manner, We ask, can men who follow contrary opinions, belong to one and the same Federation of the faithful? For example, those who affirm, and those who deny that sacred Tradition is a true fount of divine Revelation; those who hold that an ecclesiastical hierarchy, made up of bishops, priests and ministers, has been divinely constituted, and those who assert that it has been brought in little by little in accordance with the conditions of the time; those who adore Christ really present in the Most Holy Eucharist through that marvelous conversion of the bread and wine, which is called transubstantiation, and those who affirm that Christ is present only by faith or by the signification and virtue of the Sacrament; those who in the Eucharist recognize the nature both of a sacrament and of a sacrifice, and those who say that it is nothing more than the memorial or commemoration of the Lord's Supper; those who believe it to be good and useful to invoke by prayer the Saints reigning with Christ, especially Mary the Mother of God, and to venerate their images, and those who urge that such a veneration is not to be made use of, for it is contrary to the honor due to Jesus Christ, "the one mediator of God and men."[19] How so great a variety of opinions can make the way clear to effect the unity of the Church We know not; that unity can only arise from one teaching authority, one law of belief and one faith of Christians. But We do know that from this it is an easy step to the neglect of religion or indifferentism and to modernism, as they call it. Those, who are unhappily infected with these errors, hold that dogmatic truth is not absolute but relative, that is, it agrees with the varying necessities of time and place and with the varying tendencies of the mind, since it is not contained in immutable revelation, but is capable of being accommodated to human life. Besides this, in connection with things which must be believed, it is nowise licit to use that distinction which some have seen fit to introduce between those articles of faith which are fundamental and those which are not fundamental, as they say, as if the former are to be accepted by all, while the latter may be left to the free assent of the faithful: for the supernatural virtue of faith has a formal cause, namely the authority of God revealing, and this is patient of no such distinction. For this reason it is that all who are truly Christ's believe, for example, the Conception of the Mother of God without stain of original sin with the same faith as they believe the mystery of the August Trinity, and the Incarnation of our Lord just as they do the infallible teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, according to the sense in which it was defined by the Ecumenical Council of the Vatican. Are these truths not equally certain, or not equally to be believed, because the Church has solemnly sanctioned and defined them, some in one age and some in another, even in those times immediately before our own? Has not God revealed them all? For the teaching authority of the Church, which in the divine wisdom was constituted on earth in order that revealed doctrines might remain intact for ever, and that they might be brought with ease and security to the knowledge of men, and which is daily exercised through the Roman Pontiff and the Bishops who are in communion with him, has also the office of defining, when it sees fit, any truth with solemn rites and decrees, whenever this is necessary either to oppose the errors or the attacks of heretics, or more clearly and in greater detail to stamp the minds of the faithful with the articles of sacred doctrine which have been explained. But in the use of this extraordinary teaching authority no newly invented matter is brought in, nor is anything new added to the number of those truths which are at least implicitly contained in the deposit of Revelation, divinely handed down to the Church: only those which are made clear which perhaps may still seem obscure to some, or that which some have previously called into question is declared to be of faith.

"So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it. During the lapse of centuries, the mystical Spouse of Christ has never been contaminated, nor can she ever in the future be contaminated, as Cyprian bears witness: "The Bride of Christ cannot be made false to her Spouse: she is incorrupt and modest. She knows but one dwelling, she guards the sanctity of the nuptial chamber chastely and modestly."[20] The same holy Martyr with good reason marveled exceedingly that anyone could believe that "this unity in the Church which arises from a divine foundation, and which is knit together by heavenly sacraments, could be rent and torn asunder by the force of contrary wills."[21] For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one,[22] compacted and fitly joined together,[23] it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head."

Will you now call the Roman Pontiff snobby and arrogant for what he promulgated?

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Why on earth would I call a Pope snobby and arrogant on the basis of some woman in Kansas setting up a straw man argument? eyebrow

The point here is not that Catholics and Protestants are the same, nor that there are not significant doctrinal issues between us. The point here is not that it is just fine to go to Protestant services instead of Catholic Masses. Straw men all.

The point that the condescending attitude expressed in your question "What beyond beying human and baptized even unites those who profess to be Catholic to those who profess to be protestant?" is counter-productive.

First of all, as has already been pointed out, this is not even factually correct.

Second, since not all Protestants practice baptism, the only thing (according to you) we have in common with those Protestants would be that we are human. This exact same thing (the notion that all we have in common is being human) could be said of Muslims, or Buddhists, or agnostics, or atheists, or satan worshipers. This is absurd on its face. If I thought you deliberately meant it in this sense (and I'm assuming you did not, but simply didn't think it through to its logical conclusion), I would say it was mean-spirited and gratuitously insulting. We obviously have a lot more uniting us with Evangelicals or Lutherans, etc. than we have uniting us with atheists or wiccans. There can be no conclusion other than that your stance is flatly wrong.

Third, even ignoring points 1 and 2, truth is mutually exclusive with neither snobbery nor arrogance. To the contrary; the most obnoxious kinds of arrogance and snobbery are bound up in truth. The fool who arrogantly tries to pretend he is smarter than everyone else can be laughed off. The genius who genuinely is smarter and takes pains to let everybody know it is far more intolerable. The person of modest means who tries to pass themself off as "refined" is more pathetic than annoying. The rich person who flaunts their wealth and fortune over others and refuses to interact with the "unwashed masses" is the true snob.

I don't know if you watch the TV show "The Big Bang Theory," but if you do, you must surely agree that the character of Sheldon Cooper is very arrogant, but very truthful. Of all the characters on the show, he is the least likely to engage in any kind of deceit (and in fact is quite bad at it when he is roped into trying). His vast knowledge allows him to be correct most of the time on most things. But he is undeniably arrogant as he never lets anybody forget that he is the smartest person in the room.

Fourth I would direct you to the fact that the Popes who have reigned over the Catholic Church for basically your entire lifetime (John Paul II and Benedict XVI) have made a special point to reach out to non-Catholics. Perhaps you think they were stupid modernists or something of that nature. But I think they were more interested in trying to actually carry out God's plan than in patting themselves on their back for how wonderfully Catholic they were.

If you go back and look at the passage you quoted from Mortalium animos, there was a sentence you should have emphasized, but failed to do so. Specifically:

for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it,

How many Christians do you think will be convinced to return to the one true Church of Christ by somebody who takes the attitude that an Evangelical is no closer to the Truth than a pagan?

It seems to me that there will be many more convinced by somebody who builds on what we already have in common and treating them with respect than by somebody who takes a dismissive attitude towards them and emphasizes our differences.

Apr 11th 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: That's a good part of the reason I harp on the Reform of the Reform. Having Mass celebrated i...
(Quote) John-220051 said:

That's a good part of the reason I harp on the Reform of the Reform. Having Mass celebrated in the same manner as a liturgical Protestant service gives the uneducated laity the subconscious message that there isn't any difference between the Mass and a Lutheran service. Or in some extreme cases Pentecostal or Nondenominational worship.

Catholic worship should be outwardly different because liturgical theology says the Mass is an earthly representation of the heavenly reality described in the Book of Revelation, which is why traditional Catholic worship has traditionally emphasized beauty and things that weren't ordinary.

www.piercedhearts.org

Protestant worship by contrast is a community event focused on the worship of the absent Christ and it's entertainment value. It is a conscious rejection of Catholic worship.

Their's an old saying, "The law of prayer is the law of faith." Or how you pray determines how you believe.

I'd rather ape the Eastern Orthodox who share our theology of worship than Protestants whose worship derives from their rejection of the Mass.
--hide--

I will largely agree with this taken at face value, but I will point out that 'the devil is in the details," and I will add the caveat that not all protestant worship is done with "entertainment value" as a key consideration.

There is a need to "reform the reform" as you say, but I don't think the traditionalists entirely grasp the situation. Don't get me wrong; I don't think the polar opposites of the traditionalists grasp it either.

I agree that the Church does need to do a better job of differentiating itself from the Protestants. But at the same time, it is no longer the 15th Century, and what's more, it will never be the 15th Century again. There are certainly many things from that time period that need to be retained. But on the other hand, something isn't evil just because some Protestant somewhere did it first.

Apr 11th 2013 new
(Quote) John-336509 said: I will largely agree with this taken at face value, but I will point out that 'the devil is ...
(Quote) John-336509 said:



I will largely agree with this taken at face value, but I will point out that 'the devil is in the details," and I will add the caveat that not all protestant worship is done with "entertainment value" as a key consideration.



There is a need to "reform the reform" as you say, but I don't think the traditionalists entirely grasp the situation. Don't get me wrong; I don't think the polar opposites of the traditionalists grasp it either.



I agree that the Church does need to do a better job of differentiating itself from the Protestants. But at the same time, it is no longer the 15th Century, and what's more, it will never be the 15th Century again. There are certainly many things from that time period that need to be retained. But on the other hand, something isn't evil just because some Protestant somewhere did it first.

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Saying Protestant worship is about entertainment is a good descriptor of much of contemporary Protestant worship. I grew up in a more traditional Protestant church, so it was a quality that struck me when I went off to college and met Evangelicals for the first time.

No it's not the 15th or the 16th centuries anymore, but the cult of progress isn't exactly a Catholic concept. People in those centuries were much more aware of God's transcendence than most people are today, and the liturgy reflects that.

The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom has hardly been touched in 1,000 years, so would you say that Catholics and Orthodox who follow the Byzantine rite are stuck in the 11th century?

What I'm saying is that novelty does not equal being correct.
Apr 11th 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: Bible studies with Protestants can be dangerous for Catholics who don't know their faith because ...
(Quote) John-220051 said:
Bible studies with Protestants can be dangerous for Catholics who don't know their faith because they are typically used by Protestants to tempt them to leave the Church.
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"Typically", John?

I'm not sure why my experiences have been so strange, then. It's been my repeated experience that people involved in inter-denominational Bible study have been looking to understand God and His plan for us, first and foremost, rather than tempt one another.

May God's peace rest on you today, my brother.

Apr 11th 2013 new

(Quote) Con-888377 said: There you go again putting thoughts and words to what I say that aren't there. I menti...
(Quote) Con-888377 said:

There you go again putting thoughts and words to what I say that aren't there. I mentioned that country as an example of people being victimised. I was sharing a real situation. Not having a go at you. You over react at the slightest perceived threat to your personal view on how Ecumenism can be furthered and enhanced. You are in a Catholic Forum. Just stick to what is real and not perceived. The situation in Kiribati is serious for our Catholic brothers and Sisters. They have a right to practice the faith in an environment free of religious persecution. This is not the case. Vast amounts of money are coming in and being used to entice poor Catholic families to convert to Protestantism. That's not having a go at you, I am relating real stories about real Catholics who are combating real attempts to convert by bribery and distorted lies about the Catholic Church. It is hard for them to battle this. Basic Church goods like a Tabernacle, Ciboria, Chalices, Vestments are in short supply. At one stage they were using Tupperware to house the blessed Sacrament. The government delay the release of goods from the docks hoping for bribes to get an early release of goods. Due to the nature of the island being coral based wood is in short supply which means there is a shortage of coffins to bury their dead. I converted a safe into a tabernacle for them and made two ciboria and it took 3 months for it to be released by customs. is only a small example of what they are enduring. These things are only reaching Australia because of an 89 year old priest who won't abandon them He writes letters to various people in Australia asking for help, we are his only source of help. Nothing is manufactured on the island it all has to be imported. then they have to wait months to get the donations released. This situation is then used by the other denominations who have money to burn from funds pouring in to further conversions by bribery and calumny against the Catholic Church. Their plight doesn't have a quick answer. The money can't be matched so this goes unchecked. It is a sad situation that is not being adequately addressed. This is one island out of many in the area. They are also facing the fact that the sea level is rising slowly and the island is eroding and that is another big problem. The money is coming in from American based Protestant religions. No one has an answer to their dilemma. These are members of our Catholic Family. If you have access to Opus Dei maybe you could pass this on, they may be able to assist.

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There you go again lecturing to me as if I have no knowledge about what's going on... *Sigh* rolling eyes

Let's just drop this back and forth, pointless argumentation since it is pretty obvious we can't communicate.

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