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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Apr 9th 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: My encounters with Catholic laity over the past 20 years has shown me there is a lot of religious...
(Quote) John-220051 said:

My encounters with Catholic laity over the past 20 years has shown me there is a lot of religious indifferentism among them vis-a-vis the Protestants. I see a strong insecurity among Catholics about being Catholic and about wanting to be like them.

Lex orendi lex credendi
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I think most of the blame for this can be attributed to a lack of education in our Faith, which, of course, can lead to a lack of appreciation of it. Lacking sufficient understanding, it's easy to become meek. Add to that the anti-Catholic positions that are becomming popular, and you'll see more problems because of our being counter-cultural in our beliefs. Our positions aren't winning popularity contests -- nor were they meant to.

Apr 9th 2013 new

(Quote) ED-20630 said: Chelsea, You use a whole lot of fancy and flowery $5.00 words and phrases trying to convey...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

Chelsea,


You use a whole lot of fancy and flowery $5.00 words and phrases trying to convey and expound upon your various points while trying to convince others of the correctness of you views and analyses... But you will really box yourself into a very small (acceptable) world indeed with your attitudes and condescension towards genuine people of other faiths as you proceed through the rest of your life. I can't imagine that someone from another religion would ever see the value of converting to Catholicism after a having a conversation with you. That is very, very unfortunate. I hope that you begin to see the value of genuine people of faith outside of your very small box as you get older.


Further discussion of your various points would be quite fruitless at this point in time... so I will pass on it.


Just my thoughts.


Ed



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Ed,

What are you talking about, "other faiths"? There is only one faith, just as there is one Lord and one Baptism (Ephesians 4:5). There aren't genuine people of faith outside that one faith...that is a contradiction.

Just as St. Thomas Aquinas, the Angelic Doctor, showed us in his Summa:

"...Neither living nor lifeless faith remains in a heretic who disbelieves one article of faith.

"The reason of this is that the species of every habit depends on the formal aspect of the object, without which the species of the habit cannot remain. Now the formal object of faith is the First Truth, as manifested in Holy Writ and the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the First Truth. Consequently whoever does not adhere, as to an infallible and Divine rule, to the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the First Truth manifested in Holy Writ, has not the habit of faith, but holds that which is of faith otherwise than by faith. Even so, it is evident that a man whose mind holds a conclusion without knowing how it is proved, has not scientific knowledge, but merely an opinion about it. Now it is manifest that he who adheres to the teaching of the Church, as to an infallible rule, assents to whatever the Church teaches; otherwise, if, of the things taught by the Church, he holds what he chooses to hold, and rejects what he chooses to reject, he no longer adheres to the teaching of the Church as to an infallible rule, but to his own will. Hence it is evident that a heretic who obstinately disbelieves one article of faith, is not prepared to follow the teaching of the Church in all things; but if he is not obstinate, he is no longer in heresy but only in error. Therefore it is clear that such a heretic with regard to one article has no faith in the other articles, but only a kind of opinion in accordance with his own will."

This is not about "us" being inherently better than "them" in regard to those people who profess to be Catholic versus those who choose to protest against Catholicism. This is about what is true above and below it all. Personally, I'd rather be on the side of the True and the Truth, than on the side of warm and fuzzy and false.

Apr 9th 2013 new

Chelsea,


Your words (from your last post)....
"What are you talking about, "other faiths"? There is only one faith, just as there is one Lord and one Baptism (Ephesians 4:5). There aren't genuine people of faith outside that one faith...that is a contradiction."


Just one example... Mormons have their faith. It very much contradicts the teachings of the Catholic Church in many ways. I don't believe that they have a true or correct Christian faith, but in most cases I think that they believe that their faith is true and correct. I don't believe that it is even a Christian faith, but they believe that it is. In that sense, they are genuine people. They are not faking what they believe. I believe that they are wrong, but that doesn't mean that they are not genuine people in what they believe. All of the theoligical issues aside, Catholics can certainly cooperate with Mormons on certain important issues of the day (e.g. stopping abortion, stopping the advance of gay "marriage", other social issues, etc.).

By the way... This is the definition that I am using for genuine: >>> dictionary.reference.com

3. free from pretense, affectation, or hypocrisy; sincere: a genuine person.

Ed

Apr 9th 2013 new
(Quote) John-220051 said: The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ and Protestants are outside of the visible Body of Christ. We can...
(Quote) John-220051 said:

The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ and Protestants are outside of the visible Body of Christ. We cannot have a Churchless Christianity. Christ's Church is visible and one because Jesus came in the flesh and is not divided.



There are divisions FROM the Church of Christ never in it.



Protestants have excluded themselves from the Body of Christ, which is why we need to work to bring them into the unity of the Body of Christ that Jesus prayed for. We should work to convert Protestants precisely because we love them.



The following article has an excellent explanation of what orthodox Catholics believe about the Church.



www.calledtocommunion.com
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All goodness come from God- The Father,Son and Holy Spirit. Non-Catholics who are Gods children as much as we catholics are--do selfless good things.These things come from God.Perhaps these people dont know specifically -or understand this in the same way that we do.But all goodness comes from God--and when anyone of any faith does a truly good act(whether of physical action prayer,humbling of themselves) this requires an acceptance of Gods will,Gods love.

Just because we have the true faith,and the knowledge and graces of the true faith--doesn't exclude non-Catholics from God. People can intellectually understand Catholic Doctrine .But without charity and humility we can completely miss the true meaning. Catholicism is not an exclusive club where outsiders are condemned. Its a gift that we should cherish,DEFEND,and share through our example,our prayer.
Apr 9th 2013 new
(Quote) John-220051 said: The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ and Protestants are outside of the visible Body of Christ. We can...
(Quote) John-220051 said:

The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ and Protestants are outside of the visible Body of Christ. We cannot have a Churchless Christianity. Christ's Church is visible and one because Jesus came in the flesh and is not divided.



There are divisions FROM the Church of Christ never in it.



Protestants have excluded themselves from the Body of Christ, which is why we need to work to bring them into the unity of the Body of Christ that Jesus prayed for. We should work to convert Protestants precisely because we love them.



The following article has an excellent explanation of what orthodox Catholics believe about the Church.



www.calledtocommunion.com
--hide--


All goodness come from God- The Father,Son and Holy Spirit. Non-Catholics who are Gods children as much as we catholics are--do selfless good things.These things come from God.Perhaps these people dont know specifically -or understand this in the same way that we do.But all goodness comes from God--and when anyone of any faith does a truly good act(whether of physical action prayer,humbling of themselves) this requires an acceptance of Gods will,Gods love.

Just because we have the true faith,and the knowledge and graces of the true faith--doesn't exclude non-Catholics from God. People can intellectually understand Catholic Doctrine .But without charity and humility we can completely miss the true meaning. Catholicism is not an exclusive club where outsiders are condemned. Its a gift that we should cherish,DEFEND,and share through our example,our prayer.
Apr 9th 2013 new

I agree Tom.


... And we will not convert anyone to Catholicism by continually beating them over the head with the "2x4" of Catholic doctrine until they submit.


You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.


Ed

Apr 9th 2013 new

(Quote) Fred-828727 said: it must be hard to be a Protestant and have only sola sciptura
(Quote) Fred-828727 said:

it must be hard to be a Protestant and have only sola sciptura

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I agree with you Fred. It was hard.

Apr 9th 2013 new

(Quote) Peter-933860 said: Why make this assumption that I have no experience in communicating with evangelicals? And you ar...
(Quote) Peter-933860 said:

Why make this assumption that I have no experience in communicating with evangelicals? And you are still focusing on how wrong they are. Why?

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That's a no brainer. The Catholic Faith contains the fullness of truth. The other eligions do not, it is that simple. The Catholic faith was established by Jesus himself and carries the promise of prevailing regardless of persecution. The knee jerk inflamatory style of your posting shows a lack of experience. It is not being bigotted or looking down on someone when the facts are that Christ established the Catholic Church. The other denominations were founded by misguided dissidents and they are still splintering to this day. We have the sad situaion of more and more denominations supporting the idea of two men or two women having a mock ceremony of matrimony. God has given His answer to that question it can be seen in the ashes of Sodom and Gomorrah. Now that doesn't mean we persecute homosexuals. But we do have to oppose the moral sin. Sin is never permissable and should be challenged if their is genuine brotherly love. You wouldn't stand by and watch someone drink poison it is the same with serious moral sin. If you can't get your head around that you need to get training, especially if you are serious about engaging other denominations. You don't learn medicine by trial and error.The same is true when one is representing the Catholic Faith. You either believe the Catholic faith is the repository of the fullness of faith and truth or not. If not, then you should not be engaging with other denominations and giving them your interpretation of the faith instead of the Catholic point of view. The other denominations will forcefully put forward their belief. You should be capable of the same enthusiam.

Apr 9th 2013 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said: John, what I'm referring to largely is unity in the promotion of charity and social justice. Th...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

John, what I'm referring to largely is unity in the promotion of charity and social justice. That involves God-given rights that should be afforded every human being. When different faith groups come together, it isn't about doctrines or proseletyzing -- it's about doing good.

In situations outside of that realm, doctrine can become important, but our own attitude will speak volumes. Should we be beating our chests, boasting that "we're right -- you're wrong.?" Most likely that will end up as confrontational and accomplish nothing but more dislike for the Catholic Church. Snobbery accomplishes little. More effective is dialogue -- at least presenting our Catholic point of view -- what it is and why be believe in it. Trying to force our beliefs down someone's throat just doesn't work. Nor can we compromise. The Church is not a democratic institution; we don't cast our votes to change doctrines.

With increasing diversity, it will become more important to emphasize our common beliefs so that we're not fighting with other Christians, while enmity from other sources sneaks in.

After all, we we all came from the same Creator.

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No one is putting forward o beat them over he head or yell and shout you're wrong! you're wrong! But when dicussions start they are owed the truth. The type of Evangilization that is based on Catholic cringe, afraid of offending anybody, is not what Christ wants. Referring to members of another denomination as them in a collective state is not patronizing or insulting. Word cringe is a curse of politically correct hamstringing. It has no place in Religion. If it is a common cause we are supporting then it is not appropriate to proslytyze the masses. But when a truth of Catholic Faith is misrepresented then we are obliged to defend. Jesus doesn't like lukewarm followers in fact He speaks of vomiting them out of his mouth. Also He warns not all that say Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom. If we are serious about loving our neighbor then we only want the best for them, which is what we have in the Church. I am sure you agree. We keep getting dragged back to this them and us theme, it is not being used in a derogatory sense and is a gross misrepresentation of what we are saying. If our Protestant brothers and sisters felt belittled or diminished we would hear about it. When Evangilizing you are obliged to present the truth. If the presenter is half hearted in defense of their own faith why would anyone think of converting or even listening.

Apr 9th 2013 new

American Protestants pour millions of dollars and send hundreds (thousands?) of volunteers into evangelizing Catholics in Latin America, Africa, and the Philippines; because, in general, Protestants have no respect for Catholicism and often do not even consider us Christian. They see Catholics unwillingness to evangelize and defend the faith as a weakness--a weakness they exploit in their evanglical missions. American Catholics seem to be oblivious to this.

I'm a convert. I've been on the other side. I know how they think.

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