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Discussion related to living as a Catholic in the single state of life. As long as a topic is being discussed from the perspective of a single Catholic then it will be on-topic.

Tobias and Sarah's story is from the Book of Tobit, and his journey is guided by Saint Raphael.
Learn More: Tobias & Sarah as led by Saint Raphael

Apr 21st 2013 new
(Quote) Patrick-624504 said: Doesnt that make him a special person psychically speaking (if you believe that sort of thing...
(Quote) Patrick-624504 said:



Doesnt that make him a special person psychically speaking (if you believe that sort of thing) or is that the 7th son of 7th son?



Anyway just to add to your Priest I went to school with a guy who was the eldest of 11 and his mother came from a family of 17. Dont know how the women tollerated the stress on their bodies.

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I have at least a dozen healthy, happy female who have eight plus children...God made us able to have many babies. There are exceptions, of course. Some women have difficulties and health challenges.

One friend when in her forties, was pregnant with their 13th child. They told her it could kill her to have another. She prayed and rested a lot and she and the child were and are fine. That was about ten years ago.
Apr 21st 2013 new
(Quote) Meg-920823 said: I have at least a dozen healthy, happy female who have eight plus children...God made us able to have many b...
(Quote) Meg-920823 said:

I have at least a dozen healthy, happy female who have eight plus children...God made us able to have many babies. There are exceptions, of course. Some women have difficulties and health challenges.



One friend when in her forties, was pregnant with their 13th child. They told her it could kill her to have another. She prayed and rested a lot and she and the child were and are fine. That was about ten years ago.
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**female friends, (correction)
Apr 21st 2013 new
(Quote) Meg-920823 said: I have at least a dozen healthy, happy female who have eight plus children...God made us able to have many b...
(Quote) Meg-920823 said:

I have at least a dozen healthy, happy female who have eight plus children...God made us able to have many babies. There are exceptions, of course. Some women have difficulties and health challenges.



One friend when in her forties, was pregnant with their 13th child. They told her it could kill her to have another. She prayed and rested a lot and she and the child were and are fine. That was about ten years ago.
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**female friends, (correction)
Apr 21st 2013 new

(Quote) Robert-864486 said: Again I stress that there is a difference between equality and importance. Men and women are equ...
(Quote) Robert-864486 said:

Again I stress that there is a difference between equality and importance. Men and women are equal partners in marriage, yet they have different roles as laid out by God, and men are chosen to be the natural leaders. Or I am remined of the difference between a primary and a secondary offense in traffic law. A primary offense is something a cop can pull you over for and give you a ticket, while a secondary offense is something he can't pull you over for on it's own account, there has to be a primary offense to get pulled over, but once he's got you there he can give you a ticket for (like not wearing a seatbelt in some states). Jim quoted a church document that CLEARLY stated that marriage was the "primary offense" for why God created the institution. Of course he also wanted those other good things, but they don't make sense on their own for creating the institution.

If marriage does not cease to exist in heaven, then are you implying that everyone is married to everyone else? You said that it is just a symbol, and that we do not need it anymore, yet maintain that it exists, but for what end? We will all have a closeness to one another that is like and even surpasses what any married couple could experience, but that does not seem to make us actually married. Otherwise you will have to admit that two males in heaven are married.

Yes we should always be able to seek what is most important, but note the word choice there, seek, not obtain. An infertile couple has a valid marrige only because they can still seek children through the conjugal act. Anyone who cannot complete the act cannot get married. Sterility is not an impediment to marriage but impotence is. Still, this is all dealing with individual cases, and not talking about the institution itself. If one can provide a source that clarifies more on the importance and distinctions of the ends and purposes of marriage that would be appreciated.

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To whom was this answer directed?

Apr 21st 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-341178 said: Before NFP teaching was deemed acceptable, what was catholic marriage all about? I assume it wa...
(Quote) Patrick-341178 said:

Before NFP teaching was deemed acceptable, what was catholic marriage all about? I assume it was mainly about procreation - something that has been somewhat lost in modern society. It is hard for to me condemn anyone using NFP when just about everyone else (it seems) uses contraception - so I am aware of that.

Although I clearly understand the differences between NFP and artificial contraception, I think intent should matter. If a married couple is having sexual relations hoping NOT to conceive a child, although acceptable under NFP, there is part of me that finds that somewhat wrong. I know NFP is considered acceptable due the openness to life, an obvious significant distinction to artificial contraception.


So the unitive element is there, but is the procreative element there more than in a technical sense? Is a sexual act performed by a married couple hoping to procreate a child on the same level as a sexual act that is hoping not to? Now, in cases where there are infertility issues, I think that is different because the couple is expressing the unitive without hoping the procreative doesn't happen. Many infertile couples have ended up having a child when it was thought virtually impossible.


The main thing is that catholic marriage shouldn't be thought of as freedom to have as much sexual relations as a couple wants without consequence. I think some people think of that way, which is why I have some issues with Christopher West's NFP lectures, which seem to give that impression.

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"If a married couple is having sexual relations hoping NOT to conceive a child, although acceptable under NFP, there is part of me that finds that somewhat wrong. "


This is exactly what SHOULD be taught in the NFP classes. Some of the leaders DO teach this, but others don't; it should not be optional. To use NFP to avoid a pregnancy over an extended period of time is a misuse of NFP. I have known women who were unable to conceive because they had taken artifical contraceptives and then used NFP to GET pregnant. The overuse of NFP to avoid a pregnancy is a crisis situation in the Catholic Church. When a mother bears a child and then breastfeeds that child for an extended period of time there is a natural spacing that occurs between pregnancies. I have found the Couple to Couple League instruction/support to be of much greater assistance in child-bearing and natural spacing than any NFP class or TOB seminar (not a fan of former sex addict, CW).


There are MANY reasons why a woman is no longer able to conceive children, even after she has had several pregnancies. I developed undiagnosed hypothyroidism during the pregnancy of my third child (I already had 2 children, 4 pregnancies, two misscarried), which caused me to be severely anemic. I almost lost my 4th child, BECAUSE of the undiagnosed hypothyroidism. I was unable to conceive after my sixth pregnancy DUE to the undiagnosed hypothyroidism and it wasn't until I was seeking treatment for perimenopausal symptoms that I was finally diagnosed as hypothyroid. I am now on hyptyroid medication but am also postmenopausal. Would I have been able to conceive more children had I been treated for hypothyroidism earlier? Who knows? As it is my former spouse, who was an advocate of NFP and opposed to artificial birth control, had a vasectomy just before he was 40, saying that he was too old to risk having more children. It was the beginning of his "mid-life" crisis, which is a whole nother story.




Apr 21st 2013 new

Peter, and all,

I like what you said Peter, that we cannot judge from the outside when looking in on a couple's lives. My son and daughter in law have been married for 4 years and have 1 son who is 2 and a wonderful blessing. They practice family planning, not because they want to space the children out, but because they have difficulty trying to conceive and carry a pregnancy to term. My daughter in law lost 2 babies in miscarriage, before their son was born, and one last spring. They are faithful to God and open to His plan in regard to all aspects of their life together, including parenthood. And we all continue to pray for that special miracle to happen for them. We as Catholics need to remember when we are looking in from the outside, that we do not see all facets of the situation. And our Lord Himself said, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." We just need to pray for them.


Blessings to you all! Kim

Apr 21st 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-341178 said: I wouldn't say that is sinful and don't want to talk about anyone speci...
(Quote) Patrick-341178 said:





I wouldn't say that is sinful and don't want to talk about anyone specifically. I can understand that large families aren't for everyone so there are legitimate circumstances for that. I come from a family of 3, and I am the youngest, 5 and 6 years younger than my sister and brother, respectively. I have never asked and never plan to whether or not there was intended spacing going on, and if there was, that is ok.


I just would like more couple to be tring to conceive more babies in more situations.

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Patrick, large families are clearly a blessing from God. As I said earlier, children are a gift, not a given. Many times children from large families are better equiped to navigate the demands of society; specifically they understand the concept of reciprocation better than others. THe idea of entitlement does not exist in them, instead they are equipped with the ability to persist no matter what the circumstances. Unfortunately, with the introduction of artificial birth control in the 1950's, baby boomers of today are very selfish and have raised a generation of ultra-selfish children. All of this selfishness and feelings of entitlement wouldn't exist if couples had followed God's plan instead of their own plan. Members of large families are clearly a blessing to society.

Apr 21st 2013 new
(Quote) Joan-529855 said: Patrick, large families are clearly a blessing from God. As I said earlier, children are a ...
(Quote) Joan-529855 said:




Patrick, large families are clearly a blessing from God. As I said earlier, children are a gift, not a given. Many times children from large families are better equiped to navigate the demands of society; specifically they understand the concept of reciprocation better than others. THe idea of entitlement does not exist in them, instead they are equipped with the ability to persist no matter what the circumstances. Unfortunately, with the introduction of artificial birth control in the 1950's, baby boomers of today are very selfish and have raised a generation of ultra-selfish children. All of this selfishness and feelings of entitlement wouldn't exist if couples had followed God's plan instead of their own plan. Members of large families are clearly a blessing to society.

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I learned that originally, Protestants also believed artificial birth control was morally wrong.

Also, if I missed this in a prior post please forgive me but there is a natural evolution from a society's acceptance of birth control to abortion and to euthanasia. All ignore or deny the sanctity of human life.

I believe it is important for a couple to work with a good spiritual director in determining their use of NFP.
Apr 22nd 2013 new

(Quote) Robert-864486 said: If marriage does not cease to exist in heaven, then are you implying that everyone is married to...
(Quote) Robert-864486 said:

If marriage does not cease to exist in heaven, then are you implying that everyone is married to everyone else? You said that it is just a symbol, and that we do not need it anymore, yet maintain that it exists, but for what end? We will all have a closeness to one another that is like and even surpasses what any married couple could experience, but that does not seem to make us actually married. Otherwise you will have to admit that two males in heaven are married.

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The Bible is very clear that marriage does NOT exist in heaven, see Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage."


My earlier point was that marriage doesn't cease to exist in heaven only because there is no procreation & sex. Marriage is a sacrament, an outward sign of God's love, and when we are fully bathed on God's love we do not need the sacraments. In the same way that there is no marriage in heaven there will be no baptisim in heaven, as we do not need to be made clean, and be re-born to God. We're already IN heaven, we're already pure, we're already Children of God. We won't need the sacrement of penance, as we are already fully united with God and sinless.

Apr 22nd 2013 new

(Quote) Meg-920823 said: I have at least a dozen healthy, happy female who have eight plus children...God made us able to h...
(Quote) Meg-920823 said:

I have at least a dozen healthy, happy female who have eight plus children...God made us able to have many babies. There are exceptions, of course. Some women have difficulties and health challenges.

One friend when in her forties, was pregnant with their 13th child. They told her it could kill her to have another. She prayed and rested a lot and she and the child were and are fine. That was about ten years ago.
--hide--

When I worked in the Labour ward Im not sure I would totally agree, though maternal death is low n Western countries, its very high in the developing world, and I have seen seen some mothers in labour bleed out and die in my hospitals.

Medically child birth is the most dangerous event a women can undertake. But yeah big families, never said I was against them or anything like it

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