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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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May 17 new
(quote) Marc-313980 said: Very interesting discussion you've had with your family Theresa. One thing I'll chime in is that, though we may have some theological differences with Protestants, I think that at this point in time, in our country's history, with all the horrible things going on socially, culturally, etc., we need to unite with our fellow Christians. It's more important to unite with them, to fight for the culture of life, against the culture of death. There are many lukewarm Catholics (the kind who voted for Obama) who I feel I have less in common with, ideologically, than I do with the typical devout Evangelical Christian (the kind who voted for Santorum, whom I supported).
I agree with you on this Marc. I think what we should aspire is to unite with our fellow Christians, and hopefully non-Christians, and not try to find faults with other people's beliefs, to keep peace and save our world from death.

So long, in God's grace, we have faith and we continue to live the way God wants us to be - to love one another just as He loves us, then I believe we will all be saved.

What did Jesus say on how to love others? Not throwing the first stones. The problem I see with some of our dear Catholic brothers and sisters are they tend to be too rigid, almost acting similarly to those teachers and priests in Christ's time, that they forget the very essence of Christ's teachings - the new commandment, to love one another just as He loves us.

If we are to love like Christ, we must understand our brothers and sisters in different faith, accept them in peace and with compassion, and live a life that will glorify God, not a life that boasts how saintly we are or how good our path is that it almost make others feel lesser or makes a sinner/doomed in our eyes those who don't believe in our faith.

It is just sad at times because they are supposed to be the Light. But because some focus too much on dogmas and teachings, we turn away believers. Really sad when I see this happening, and much as I want to win back that soul, I can only pray for them.

May 17 new
(quote) Marc-313980 said: There are certainly doctrinal differences, but I still think we need to unite with all our fellow Christians (and Orthodox Jews as well) in the battle against the culture of death, that's being waged in the world right now.
Considering Protestants are not true followers of Christ, but mere usurpers of the name Christ-follower, they belong to the same class of non-Catholic, un-Christian peoples as the Muslims, Buddists, Wiccans, etc. Why do they and the Jews get to be on "our side"?
Individuals in any religion have their good qualities, but the fact remains that only Christ and His Church have the key to true peace, those fallen members who grow outside of the branch, do not, and they should not be treated as though they do.
May 18 new
(quote) Felicity-929402 said: Considering Protestants are not true followers of Christ, but mere usurpers of the name Christ-follower, they belong to the same class of non-Catholic, un-Christian peoples as the Muslims, .... etc. Why do they and the Jews get to be on "our side"?
Individuals in any religion have their good qualities, but the fact remains that only Christ and His Church have the key to true peace, those fallen members who grow outside of the branch, do not, and they should not be treated as though they do.
www.scborromeo.org

Re: 'mere usurpers', Protestants have the right to be called Christians because the Church says so (818). The Church recognises the validity of their baptisms.

Re: "our side", Muslims and Jews get to be on our side because the Church says so (839, 841).

The Church says that they too worship the one, true God. To say that people who seek to be obedient (in their, albeit, imperfect ways) to the same God of the Catholic Christians are not on the same side as Catholic Christians is about the same as saying that a native-born Canadian citizen who doesn't know enough to pass the Canadian Citizenship Test isnt really a Canadian. (Incidentally, is an Anglophone who can't speak French, or a Francophone who can't speak English, really a member of the one, united family of Canada?)

www.yourlibrary.ca

Re: only Christ and his Church have the key to true peace, yes and no. As the Catechism acknowledges, separations were also caused by faults, at the time of the separations, in members of the Church Militant who remained in the Catholic Church (817). While Christ and the Church Triumphant are, of course, not to blame for the schisms that have occurred, at least some members of the Church Militant played important roles in letting down the desire of God that all should be one by not using, or by using imperfectly, their copies of the key to true peace.

May 18 new
(quote) Roystan-340472 said: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

Re: 'mere usurpers', Protestants have the right to be called Christians because the Church says so (818). The Church recognises the validity of their baptisms.

Re: "our side", Muslims and Jews get to be on our side because the Church says so (839, 841).

The Church says that they too worship the one, true God. To say that people who seek to be obedient (in their, albeit, imperfect ways) to the same God of the Catholic Christians are not on the same side as Catholic Christians is about the same as saying that a native-born Canadian citizen who doesn't know enough to pass the Canadian Citizenship Test isnt really a Canadian. (Incidentally, is an Anglophone who can't speak French, or a Francophone who can't speak English, really a member of the one, united family of Canada?)

http://www.yourlibrary.ca/citizenship/

Re: only Christ and his Church have the key to true peace, yes and no. As the Catechism acknowledges, separations were also caused by faults, at the time of the separations, in members of the Church Militant who remained in the Catholic Church (817). While Christ and the Church Triumphant are, of course, not to blame for the schisms that have occurred, at least some members of the Church Militant played important roles in letting down the desire of God that all should be one by not using, or by using imperfectly, their copies of the key to true peace.

This 'catechism' is not Doctrine, but contains therein the error of modern Ecumenicalism. Yes, the
error. If we "accept" that the Protestants have the means of salvation, wherein is their motivation to return to the Church? How can they be "Christ-followers" when they deny His holy Presence in the Blessed Sacrament, His holy mother Mary, His representative on earth, etc?
I think a better simile in this case would asking if someone who denies the leadership and rules of a club, and encourages people to stay away from the club can be considered part of the club, just because they like the name and the guy who founded the club.


Holy Mother Church has not always recognized their baptisms, one upon a time and it still happens, Protestant converts to the True Faith are given "conditional" Baptism. Essentially, we do not know if the proper words of Baptism were used, so we redo it to be sure.

Consider St. Thomas Moore and all the English martyr- for what purpose were they murdered if we have a 'small' disagreement with the Anglicans but actually worship the same God? Were their sacrifices for nothing? Or did they have a true understanding of how important the Faith is?
May 18 new
(quote) Felicity-929402 said: Individuals in any religion have their good qualities, but the fact remains that only Christ and His Church have the key to true peace, those fallen members who grow outside of the branch, do not, and they should not be treated as though they do.
Felicity, I am really concerned with your response.

So how do you recommend us Catholics should treat those who are not? Don't allow them in communion? Don't let them be buried in a Catholic cemetery? Don't let our children socialize with others outside our faith? Being indifferent to them as if they are lepers?

My question - why would we even treat someone outside our faith differently?

Remember Christ teachings. Where did Jesus Christ stay and live most of His life? He was out there in the world, showing compassion, healing people, guiding the lost, forgiving sins, staying with sinners, eating with His hands although it was against the social norms of that day, having dinner with the taxpayers, calling the sinners to be his disciples, etc.

If we are truly Christians, we must not label us who remained in the Catholic faith as the chosen one, because we ALL are. We just need to help those who are outside our Church to find their way back by showing love and compassion, just as how Jesus Christ taught us, and if they don't, accept that they have a different path to take, but it doesn't mean, eventually, they will not be lead by God back home, because believe me, I am sure, God will, just as a shepherd seek and rejoices in finding one of it's lost sheep.

Your word that "we should not treat them as though they do" will only breed misunderstanding, distrust then hatred. And that is not what God wants us to have.
May 18 new
I meant tax collectors... :)
May 18 new
Lesil,
The law of the Church is that unbaptised Catholics (or one who has committed suicide), cannot be buried in consecrated ground. Children are like sponges and purity is easily lost, I would absolutely discourage my child from any intimate friendships with non-Catholics, or bad Catholics, within reason. That's a general rule, there can be exceptions.

People were not "indifferent" to lepers, they hated them. Lepers were thrown from their homes, disowned by their families and neighbours, and required to keep out-of-sight or range-of-smell for the healthy. Holy Mother Church in her age-old wisdom, does not hate non-Catholics. She is sad for them and wants to see them included in the joys of heaven one day. (See my note above: where is the motivation to join the Faith if they are "okay"?)

Do not fall in to the Protestant error, Lesil, of only seeing God's mercy. He is perfect Justice as well, and "man cannot understand the judgements of God" The Catechist. He gave us laws- not to break, but to follow if we want to show our love for Him.


I'm not quite sure what you mean by:
" Your word that "we should not treat them as though they do" will only breed misunderstanding, distrust then hatred. And that is not what God wants us to have". My words indicated that treating their "truth" as being EQUAL to Catholic "Truth" is fallacious at best, and extremely hypocritical at worst. How can Catholics say "We have God's Truth, but it's okay if you want to continue floating along in your 'truth' because you like it better"....? Truth is true, and a deliberate half-truth is still a lie, no matter how we nod and smile and bow and wink about it.

Jesus Himself practiced "just anger". He threw the money changers from the temple. He declared anathema to those who did not hear His words. He spoke to the Samarian woman at the well, not to congratulate her on her recent 'marriage', but to educate her on her errors. Charity and mercy are extremely important, but sometimes charity requires that we take a hard stance toward someone or something. Fortitude in God's Truth is always the most important.

Sorry, if this seems a bit short/impatient. I had already written you a big response when the webpage decided to error and I lost it all. :/
May 18 new
I personally can attest to the fact that the Holy Spirit is at work in protestant churches. I spent most of my life in them and I simply can't deny it based on my experiences. It was my time in the protestant churches that prepared me to receive the fullness of the truth found in Catholicism.

To whom much has been given much is expected as Catholics we have the fullness of truth, sacraments, the communion of saints, and yet most of the Catholics I come across make their faith a "personal" thing. Protestants though they have been given less seem to do more.

Protestants would be judged by what they have been given they are completely ignorant of what the fullness of truth is. For someone like myself if I were to leave the Catholic church I would be judged more harshly because I've come to know the truth and yet chose not to abide in it. But we can't apply the same standards to our separated brothers and sisters.
May 18 new
(quote) Felicity-929402 said: Considering Protestants are not true followers of Christ, but mere usurpers of the name Christ-follower, they belong to the same class of non-Catholic, un-Christian peoples as the Muslims, Buddists, Wiccans, etc. Why do they and the Jews get to be on "our side"?
Individuals in any religion have their good qualities, but the fact remains that only Christ and His Church have the key to true peace, those fallen members who grow outside of the branch, do not, and they should not be treated as though they do.
I was referring to our side in the battle of "the culture of life vs. the culture of death" that's going on in the world right now. All hands on deck. If a devout Protestant or Jew is on our side in that battle, then I'm glad to have them.
May 18 new
(quote) Lesil-840134 said: I agree with you on this Marc. I think what we should aspire is to unite with our fellow Christians, and hopefully non-Christians, and not try to find faults with other people's beliefs, to keep peace and save our world from death.

So long, in God's grace, we have faith and we continue to live the way God wants us to be - to love one another just as He loves us, then I believe we will all be saved.

What did Jesus say on how to love others? Not throwing the first stones. The problem I see with some of our dear Catholic brothers and sisters are they tend to be too rigid, almost acting similarly to those teachers and priests in Christ's time, that they forget the very essence of Christ's teachings - the new commandment, to love one another just as He loves us.

If we are to love like Christ, we must understand our brothers and sisters in different faith, accept them in peace and with compassion, and live a life that will glorify God, not a life that boasts how saintly we are or how good our path is that it almost make others feel lesser or makes a sinner/doomed in our eyes those who don't believe in our faith.

It is just sad at times because they are supposed to be the Light. But because some focus too much on dogmas and teachings, we turn away believers. Really sad when I see this happening, and much as I want to win back that soul, I can only pray for them.

Nicely stated, Lesil.
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