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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Apr 30th 2013 new

Purgatory is the mud room of the Lord. "Purgatory" by Fr. F.X. Schouppe is a great read, and you can get a copy fairly cheap on amazon.

Apr 30th 2013 new

(Quote) Therese-632256 said: Hi Felicity, I think you meant to say why they DON'T accept Maccabees.
(Quote) Therese-632256 said:


Hi Felicity, I think you meant to say why they DON'T accept Maccabees.

--hide--

Haha yes.. thank you Therese! *DO NOT accept Maccabees

May 1st 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Purgatory is settled dogma in the Church. Where did you get the idea it wasn't?
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Purgatory is settled dogma in the Church. Where did you get the idea it wasn't?

--hide--

Good day, Paul.

Maybe I'm confusing my terms. I've been under the impression that the distinction between "doctrine" and "dogma" is that the Church teaches the former, while requiring Catholics to believe the latter. "Jesus really died, and really rose from the dead." That's dogma: if you don't believe that, then you shouldn't consider yourself Catholic.


I had understood that teachings about Purgatory, its length, the manner in which indulgences could shave time off of a loved one's sentence, were amenable to revision, such as with Indulgentiarum doctrina, rather than a hard line in the sand.

-- In joy and service,


Chris M.

May 1st 2013 new

(Quote) Chris-930705 said: Good day, Paul. Maybe I'm confusing my terms. I've been under th...
(Quote) Chris-930705 said:

Good day, Paul.

Maybe I'm confusing my terms. I've been under the impression that the distinction between "doctrine" and "dogma" is that the Church teaches the former, while requiring Catholics to believe the latter. "Jesus really died, and really rose from the dead." That's dogma: if you don't believe that, then you shouldn't consider yourself Catholic.


I had understood that teachings about Purgatory, its length, the manner in which indulgences could shave time off of a loved one's sentence, were amenable to revision, such as with Indulgentiarum doctrina, rather than a hard line in the sand.

-- In joy and service,


Chris M.

--hide--

I don't really understand your last sentence. One of the reasons that Paul VI changed the way indulgences were described; i.e. this act or prayer has xxx days indulgence, was because its meaning was not correctly understood by most Catholics including a lot of clergy and consecrated persons - nuns as well as virtually all laity.

It was most commonly believed that it represented the number of days one had to spend in purgatory was cut by that many days. In fact, all it meant was that performing the prescribed act or prayer was the same as if you did that number of days of penance. The time cut from your "sentence" in purgatory was always dependent on your disposition.

In the case of a plenary indulgence, whether or not you actual earn it by meeting all the requirements, was always and is now dependent on your disposition.

So the assigning of indulgences to specific acts or prayers has always been a matter of discipline and can be changed at any time.

But the matter of the existence of purgatory and the fact that unless a person achieves perfection in this life, they must be purified after death before they can enter heaven has always been a fixed teaching of the Church. That basic teaching has not and cannot be changed. I do not know if it has ever been a formally defined dogma, nevertheless one must believe the basic teaching.

May 1st 2013 new

(Quote) Chris-930705 said: Good day, Paul. Maybe I'm confusing my terms. I've been under th...
(Quote) Chris-930705 said:

Good day, Paul.

Maybe I'm confusing my terms. I've been under the impression that the distinction between "doctrine" and "dogma" is that the Church teaches the former, while requiring Catholics to believe the latter. "Jesus really died, and really rose from the dead." That's dogma: if you don't believe that, then you shouldn't consider yourself Catholic.


I had understood that teachings about Purgatory, its length, the manner in which indulgences could shave time off of a loved one's sentence, were amenable to revision, such as with Indulgentiarum doctrina, rather than a hard line in the sand.

-- In joy and service,


Chris M.

--hide--

I don't really understand your last sentence. One of the reasons that Paul VI changed the way indulgences were described; i.e. this act or prayer has xxx days indulgence, was because its meaning was not correctly understood by most Catholics including a lot of clergy and consecrated persons - nuns as well as virtually all laity.

It was most commonly believed that it represented the number of days one had to spend in purgatory was cut by that many days. In fact, all it meant was that performing the prescribed act or prayer was the same as if you did that number of days of penance. The time cut from your "sentence" in purgatory was always dependent on your disposition.

In the case of a plenary indulgence, whether or not you actual earn it by meeting all the requirements, was always and is now dependent on your disposition.

So the assigning of indulgences to specific acts or prayers has always been a matter of discipline and can be changed at any time.

But the matter of the existence of purgatory and the fact that unless a person achieves perfection in this life, they must be purified after death before they can enter heaven has always been a fixed teaching of the Church. That basic teaching has not and cannot be changed. I do not know if it has ever been a formally defined dogma, nevertheless one must believe the basic teaching.

May 1st 2013 new

(Quote) Jim- nd Reena! I will be using these to study. Ever notice how sometimes the very best answer that comes to...
(Quote) Jim-

nd Reena! I will be using these to study. Ever notice how sometimes the very best answer that comes to you comes usually after the person asking the question has left? Drives me nuts sometimes.

--hide--


You're welcome, Jim! highfive

I am still honing my "skills" to explain pu-pu-pu-purgatory to my Protestant friends hehehe. May the Holy Spirit guide me.It's still an ongoing dialog . I'm still learning how to better explain what Catholics believe about Purgatory.

May 1st 2013 new

Thnk you, Paul.

May 3rd 2013 new

Protestents believe when you die you go to heaven or hell. Period.

Scripture talks about Jesus giving a soul the chance for salvation after death. It is reasonably definite about it too. It seems that everybody believes that when you go to heaven, or hell, you do not get out. So purgatory becomes this third place, where your soul goes as is offered the choice, heaven or hell. This can bother protestants.

May 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) Lawrence-943343 said: Protestents believe when you die you go to heaven or hell. Period. Scripture talks abou...
(Quote) Lawrence-943343 said:

Protestents believe when you die you go to heaven or hell. Period.

Scripture talks about Jesus giving a soul the chance for salvation after death. It is reasonably definite about it too. It seems that everybody believes that when you go to heaven, or hell, you do not get out. So purgatory becomes this third place, where your soul goes as is offered the choice, heaven or hell. This can bother protestants.

--hide--

Cite the passage in scripture that says this.

At death, a person is either damend or saved. If saved but not purified in this life they go to purgatory until their purification is complete. In purgatory THEY ARE NOT GIVEN A CHOICE, they are already and eternally saved.

May 3rd 2013 new

Hi Paul

There are numerous places in Scripture that discuss the dead having the chance to choose salvation. I'll get to the specifics in a minute. You cannot overlook Church Tradition, which to Catholics is just as important as Scripture.

As far as Tradition goes, you must explain to me the concept of praying for the dead. If, when you die, you go to heaven or hell praying for the dead is a waste of effort. If the dead do not go to heaven or hell then where do they go? Catholics invented purgatory. We could have called it something else, but we called it purgatory. If you expect me to believe the stuff about indulgences, and saying so many prayers means you don't have to spend 300 years in purgatory you have a real tall task to accomplish. I do believe in Purgatory, I believe it is a third place souls can go after death. What happens there is vague. Certainly there is the purification of your soul but no real mention is made on how that is done, or how long it takes. In all fairness, I don't think the Church fully embraces Scripture in this area.The Church seized this area to made a bunch of money in the past but I think it has gotten away from that now.

Read 1 Peter 4. I guess this is controversial. I've read all of 1 Peter and, in my opinion, Peter is not referring to death as death in the spirit. Peter is referring to death as being dead and buried. So then you must explain away the passage, "But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead." and "For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit." This passage, while confusing, and evidentially not just to me, does do a good job of making you think. Assuming Peter was not on crack, what is he talking about?

Then there is the overall view of God and man. We know God loves us, that He is a just God, and that He has gone to great lengths to help us. He sent Jesus to purchase our salvation. That shows me how much God loves us. When you read the Bible I think it is fair to have the predisposition toward the forgiveness and love of God. The idea that Jesus will judge the living and the dead supports the concept that judgement will come at a unique date. That people will just be dead until that date and there will be some people alive on that date. If you believe that, then Peter seems to say that the Gospel will be preached to the people that are dead, prior to judgement. That makes sense. I'll grant you that most of Scripture indicates we are to be judged on what we do before we die, but I do wonder about this.

To the best of my knowledge, Jesus has no restrictions on His judgement. He can allow Judas or Hitler or me into heaven, or send Peter, or Mother Theresa or me to hell. About all we can do is realize that God has done a great deal of work to get us into heaven; He must want us there. Since we actually know very little about what our state of being is after death, the idea that we will hear the gospel during the time we are dead is comforting. I couldn't find the passage I really wanted to find, but this one is interesting. Why preach the Gospel to those that will be condemned to Hell?

Honestly, I don't have it all figured out.

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