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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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May 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Naomi-698107 said: Your opinion is based on dodgey intel. There is no shortage of priests or nuns. T...
(Quote) Naomi-698107 said:

Your opinion is based on dodgey intel.

There is no shortage of priests or nuns. The vocation in most danger is marriage.

The Church has stood for 2000 years. A few women wanting to play dress up isn't going to collaspe the Truth, but that doesn't mean we sit idly by and do nothing but smirk. In all liklihood this current Western society will be in the dust in 50 years. It will be the Catholic Church and Her beautiful, Christ given Traditions that pulls it out. It will be done with obidence to God, not women feeling all "emotional" about holding a piece of bread over their head and pretend they're turning it into Jesus.

Women priests are a demonic heresy, and we should never be affraid to call out such blasphemy when we see it.

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Well said.

May 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Felicity-929402 said: It may be a stretch, but true none-the-less. Men can serve the Mass, why don't women?<...
(Quote) Felicity-929402 said:


It may be a stretch, but true none-the-less. Men can serve the Mass, why don't women?
I dislike that topipc being brought up too and I was trying to avoid it as well.. :/ Interesting to note: it would appear that the lack of male altar servers may be due to some parents withdrawing all their children from being in close quarters with the priests. Very sad..

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Not to mention the often overlooked, but rather obvious fact that boys don't like to do girl things. This should not be discounted in the equation and has been noted by some bishops and priests as one of the reasons for the decline in priestly vocations in the US.

May 4th 2013 new

(Quote) John-43975 said: Not to mention the often overlooked, but rather obvious fact that boys don't like to do gir...
(Quote) John-43975 said:


Not to mention the often overlooked, but rather obvious fact that boys don't like to do girl things.

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Be that as it may, when it comes to the priesthood we are not talking about "boy" things or "girl" things. We are talking abuot man things.

Anybody who does't want to become a priest because when they were a child there were female alter servers does not even remotely poses the maturity or perspective to be a worthwhile priest.

If that is the kind of person who is turned off to the priesthood, perhaps the decline in vocations is a blessing in disguise.

May 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Cheryl-409772 said: I like the way you put this...but the point is the pope still permitted it and people arguing ov...
(Quote) Cheryl-409772 said:

I like the way you put this...but the point is the pope still permitted it and people arguing over it is a waste of time.

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Well, the Amish are pretty awesome. It's hard not to like talking about their awesome ways of not interrupting people they love. Or taking phone calls in the outhouse.

Man, I'll never get over that one!

May 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said: Why was it "seen and treated as effeminate" for boys or men to be altar servers your pari...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

Why was it "seen and treated as effeminate" for boys or men to be altar servers your parish?

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I can't answer the "why" question. I would have to know the intention of the individuals who presented it as such to us kids. However, my grandfather, father and his brothers certainly acted like something had changed between the days when they served the priest at the altar and when I started to do so. My brother, to my knowledge, for one thing, was never pushed to serve at the altar, whereas my sister and I who are near the same age were pushed to do so. There was an obvious disparity in the number of girls who served the priest at the altar than boys.

Fellow boy students were never asked to skip school to serve at funerals, only girls. Only the female altar servers went on the field trips and "fun days".

It obviously got the look of an exclusive "girls' club".

Even at the new parish I attend, there is a disparity between the numbers of girls and boys who serve the priest in favor of girls...

May 5th 2013 new

There is a self-described Christian mystical organization known as the Order of Christ/ Sophia, that ordains women priests and deacons. The co-founder is Mother Clare Watts who calls herself a master teacher and is occasionally referred to as a guru. The other co-founder, Peter Bowes, has split from her in the latter half of 2012, forming a group known as the Ruach Center. This group also ordains women priests. I'm neither condoning nor condemning them, despite the fact that I believe in the Roman Catholic Church's teaching on the subject. Clare Watts' background is Protestant, but Bowes' background is Catholic.

May 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Peter-793888 said: Gregory, you're absolutly correct, but it runs even deeper then what you said. The pr...
(Quote) Peter-793888 said:



Gregory, you're absolutly correct, but it runs even deeper then what you said. The priest (in persona Christi) is in a mystical way married to His Church (the congregation). The Church has always been seen as feminine (the Bride of Christ). So if you were to have a female priest they would standing in the person of Christ (which is impossible because Christ is male) and would then be married to their congregation (The Church) and you have a female-female relationship (in esssence a Gay marriage).

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Thank you for your response. If you want to get all fancy about it, the priest acts "in persona Christi capitis" :) The problem with analogies is that, as they say, they limp. You, for instance, are a part of the Church, the Bride of Christ. Ironically, because of this, someone could argue that the priest is married to you as much as to anyone else, which would be rather gay! Analogies can be pressed too far, yes?


I think in all fairness we should recall that JPII (and Paul VI before him) never said that Jesus couldn't have done otherwise. Ordination is not conferred on women not because they are naturally or intellectually incapable of receiving grace per se, but rather because this is how Jesus planned it. They were anxious to stress that God did not become a man by mistake or the flip of a coin - that he had a reason for doing this, and that Jesus had a definite plan in mind when he linked his *sacramental* priesthood to maleness. By doing so, he thereby established a male-only sacramental priesthood (as opposed to the "common" [i.e., shared] priesthood of the baptized, which men and women both share), precisely as a consequence of the fact that men and women are not substitutible for each other. He seems to be saying that in order for Himself to be sacramentally present at the Mass or as the minister of the sacraments, he must be *fully* present, including his sex, and hence, *in that capacity*, a woman cannot substitute for a man, because a woman cannot "re-present" for a man, nor vice versa. (Sorry if that's a bit muddled, I'm hashing my thinking out as I go.) In other words, Jesus could have perhaps established some other kind of ordained priesthood that would've been open to women, but because he made the ordained priesthood *his own* priesthood, linked to his own personhood and sacramental re-presentation of himself, that therefore the non-substitutability of male and female precludes female participation in this particular priesthood. Because Jesus established it this way, the Church therefore "has no authority" to do otherwise.

May 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Gregory-862210 said: The problem with analogies is that, as they say, they limp. You, for instance, are a part of th...
(Quote) Gregory-862210 said:

The problem with analogies is that, as they say, they limp. You, for instance, are a part of the Church, the Bride of Christ. Ironically, because of this, someone could argue that the priest is married to you as much as to anyone else, which would be rather gay! Analogies can be pressed too far, yes?

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I agree that analogies (especially in reference to God) always breakdown at some point. That said, the Church as the Bride of Christ is more then just an analogy that we as humans have derived in an attempt to better understand the mystry of God (which in reality is impossible to fully understand. It is a part of scripture, most commonly the Book of Revelation (the marriage of the Lamb). Also noticed that I said the priest was maried in a mystical sense to his congregation, in the a similar way that Christ's marriage to the Church refers to the Universal Church and can not be further broken down to say that Christ is married to everyone within the Church because that would imply that poligomy is OK.

May 6th 2013 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: Be that as it may, when it comes to the priesthood we are not talking about "boy" things...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

Be that as it may, when it comes to the priesthood we are not talking about "boy" things or "girl" things. We are talking abuot man things.

Anybody who does't want to become a priest because when they were a child there were female alter servers does not even remotely poses the maturity or perspective to be a worthwhile priest.

If that is the kind of person who is turned off to the priesthood, perhaps the decline in vocations is a blessing in disguise.

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I agree with that general analysis John, but I think the point-given is more that these little boys- who, by their ages, are somewhat allowed to think silly things and be immature- never serve and never have that opportunity to be close and part of the Mass, thus their knowledge of a vocation may never be awakened.

I think it can be very difficult to turn back to the path of grace when one is not firmly set in it as a child. Does anyone have the Eurcharist Crusaders set up in their parish? It is a wonderful group for children, they do not form a servers' guild, simply little ones making the effort to be close to God.

May 6th 2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: I can't answer the "why" question. I would have to know the intention of ...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



I can't answer the "why" question. I would have to know the intention of the individuals who presented it as such to us kids. However, my grandfather, father and his brothers certainly acted like something had changed between the days when they served the priest at the altar and when I started to do so. My brother, to my knowledge, for one thing, was never pushed to serve at the altar, whereas my sister and I who are near the same age were pushed to do so. There was an obvious disparity in the number of girls who served the priest at the altar than boys.

Fellow boy students were never asked to skip school to serve at funerals, only girls. Only the female altar servers went on the field trips and "fun days".

It obviously got the look of an exclusive "girls' club".

Even at the new parish I attend, there is a disparity between the numbers of girls and boys who serve the priest in favor of girls...

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Perhaps a study of this phenomenon would yield interesting results. I can speak only of my area, not having lived elsewhere since female servers were allowed. It doesn't seem that gender plays a role. What I would guess is if there's a shortage of boys available and willing to serve, it might be due to sporting activities which seem to rank high among the younger set. With games played early and schedules therefore tight, the boys' availability is limited.

The idea of sporting and other events on Sunday mornings is another topic, so I won't pursue that here.

Getting back to boys not wanting to serve, perhaps CM members from different parts of the country could comment on their respective areas.

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