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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Thomas More

May 28 new
(quote) John-336509 said: What you are saying here is somewhat fantastic, not to mention completely contradicted by the facts.

I will again point out that it is the Iraqis doing the bombing of themselves, not us.

Saddam Hussein absolutely was killing civilians on a daily basis. And not only killing them. He employed professional rapists.

How can you sit there and act like pre-war Iraqi parents somehow didn't have to worry about the safety of their children? There is absolutely no basis in reality for this stand.

One of the whole reasons why people were concerned about WMD's in Iraq was because Saddam bombed civilian towns with nerve gas and in one single solitary instance killed over 5,000 civilians, including children! There were pictures in the press of the dead bodies of children lying bloating in the sun on the streets. But according to you this "order and stability." I don't think anybody wants that kind of order and stability.

But death wasn't the only problem for Iraqi parents. If your father (or husband, or brother) did something that the government didn't like but for whatever reason did feel like killing him, he might well be taken into a room. You, as a female relative, would be also taken into that room, so that they could gang rape you in front of him. But it was all orderly, so I guess it was okay, right? These rapists were actually professionals. Think about that for a second. Saddam did this so regularly he had guys on payrolll whose whole job was to rape women in front of their families. It boggles the mind that you constantly bring up how orderly and "secure" pre-war Iraq was. Who cares?

Would it really make you feel better to know that you or your family was might be killed deliberately by your own government than it would to think that if there was a valid military target nearby, and if the Americans attacked it and if they missed that target you might be accidentally killed. Would your really sleep better at night knowing that at any moment the door could be kicked down and you or your mother or daughter or sister, or random friend could be dragged off and incessantly gang raped or otherwise tortured because some informer somewhere whispered something about one of your friends of family members? That's your idea of peace?
Easy on Rebecca, John... she has a lot to learn...

One has to love her passion for peace, but her reasoning is seriously flawed as you expose.

The enemy has used the arguments she embraces to confuse us; to give the diplomats false hope who don't recognize diplomatic means has been exhausted; and, politicians act without a backbone because the majority themselves are not properly disposed...

I know our current president is not going to send the likes of my son and other able bodied men into action and the situation there will deteriorate. It seems to me that doing what is right and honorable takes a back seat to appeasing one's constituency.

I am sick of triangulation, with God's precepts nowhere on the radar.

Even when we bring the issues home, look at the administration's work on abortion ( the death of hundred's of thousands annually, ney, likely millions when contraception is in the mix), yet it's so concerned for school children. PAAAALEEEEEASE!

Ok, I said I was going to stay out of here... so I should stick with my word...
May 29 new
(quote) John-336509 said: What you are saying here is somewhat fantastic, not to mention completely contradicted by the facts.

I will again point out that it is the Iraqis doing the bombing of themselves, not us.

Saddam Hussein absolutely was killing civilians on a daily basis. And not only killing them. He employed professional rapists.

How can you sit there and act like pre-war Iraqi parents somehow didn't have to worry about the safety of their children? There is absolutely no basis in reality for this stand.

One of the whole reasons why people were concerned about WMD's in Iraq was because Saddam bombed civilian towns with nerve gas and in one single solitary instance killed over 5,000 civilians, including children! There were pictures in the press of the dead bodies of children lying bloating in the sun on the streets. But according to you this "order and stability." I don't think anybody wants that kind of order and stability.

But death wasn't the only problem for Iraqi parents. If your father (or husband, or brother) did something that the government didn't like but for whatever reason did feel like killing him, he might well be taken into a room. You, as a female relative, would be also taken into that room, so that they could gang rape you in front of him. But it was all orderly, so I guess it was okay, right? These rapists were actually professionals. Think about that for a second. Saddam did this so regularly he had guys on payrolll whose whole job was to rape women in front of their families. It boggles the mind that you constantly bring up how orderly and "secure" pre-war Iraq was. Who cares?

Would it really make you feel better to know that you or your family was might be killed deliberately by your own government than it would to think that if there was a valid military target nearby, and if the Americans attacked it and if they missed that target you might be accidentally killed. Would your really sleep better at night knowing that at any moment the door could be kicked down and you or your mother or daughter or sister, or random friend could be dragged off and incessantly gang raped or otherwise tortured because some informer somewhere whispered something about one of your friends of family members? That's your idea of peace?
John: How did you learn of Professional Rapists? I never heard that before nor
did I hear of it in realtion to Saddam Hussan. I guess it came out after we
started the war over there.
May 29 new
(quote) John-971967 said: Easy on Rebecca, John... she has a lot to learn...

One has to love her passion for peace, but her reasoning is seriously flawed as you expose.

The enemy has used the arguments she embraces to confuse us; to give the diplomats false hope who don't recognize diplomatic means has been exhausted; and, politicians act without a backbone because the majority themselves are not properly disposed...

I know our current president is not going to send the likes of my son and other able bodied men into action and the situation there will deteriorate. It seems to me that doing what is right and honorable takes a back seat to appeasing one's constituency.

I am sick of triangulation, with God's precepts nowhere on the radar.

Even when we bring the issues home, look at the administration's work on abortion ( the death of hundred's of thousands annually, ney, likely millions when contraception is in the mix), yet it's so concerned for school children. PAAAALEEEEEASE!

Ok, I said I was going to stay out of here... so I should stick with my word...
The problem I have with Rebecca's passion is that it is so full of cliches. And it gets
really old after awhile.

Besides, I don't think you or me or John or Rebecca really know what goes down
in DC anymore.

As you said, the administration is responsibile for killing of
millions in abortion, then America is so worried about
educating schoolchildren--a good percentage of which aren't even American.

Killing is killing whether it is euthanasia or abortion. And it is all wrong in the eyes
of the Lord.

May 29 new
(quote) Bernie-645443 said: Hi Rebecca, democracy has been brought at the point of a sword : Germany 1944 to the present, and Japan 1941 to the present. Those countries also have very peaceful records since the sword point was applied.
Bernie:

Have you heard that anti-semitism is activating again in Europe?

Boy, Jews seem to be a target no matter what. You would think there would
be other targets for skinheads to go after. After all, jihads are probably their
worst enemy.
May 29 new
Easy on what? I never said Saddam was a wonderful guy. But what I said is can we guarantee that us going in there is going to make the world better for Iraq. And guess what that is part of the just war criteria-that the outcome will involve a better future. The fact is Iraq is having major civil war right now, and right now the "democrat government in Iraq" is becoming more repressive-and its especially not so great with minorities. So here's the thing what if we lost all of those lives in Iraq, killed all those people including civilians, and the people end up-not better off maybe even worse than before. That's the question with Syria now. If it was a matter of Syria-WILL for sure have a better life when we finish than that's one thing. But there's a very good chance what will come out is a regime that is more repressive. So I'm sorry Saddam killing his own civilians-doesn't give us the right to kill civilians too. That's just more lives lost. The fact of the matter is you can't solve all the worlds problems by force. Eventually after war-you are left with the same questions that existed before... I suggest you take a look at the criteria for just war. The criteria doesn't involve just having a noble cause. You have to have an outcome for success.
May 29 new
Iraq's not having a major civil war but the sectarian strife is getting worse it could easily end up in that.
May 29 new
(quote) Rebecca-654746 said: I suggest you take a look at the criteria for just war. The criteria doesn't involve just having a noble cause. You have to have an outcome for success.
The criteria for just action is innate in a man's mind properly formed my dear.

I am happy that you are now finally good with it; as long as we are just (a no brainer) and we win (well of course).

Excellent!!!!!

Consider this between us a done deal then.

Now please go and convince the President to do the right thing too.

Why not try other domestic issues with him as well?!

I knew with prayer you would come around.
May 29 new
I never said just win but a good outcome. If us going to war for a freedom for a country and that means the country ends up in civil war-that means the outcome is not good. You have to have a good shot that the people will have a better shot at a better life ,afterwards. That you won't cause more damage with your bombs. That's the point. The beginning of just war criteria is the war has to be in self defense. No one can truly argue Iraq was a threat to us (please) But one could argue it was in defense of the Iraqi people. So what that means is there must be a good chance that for the Iraqi people will be better off. That's very debatable. And remember there's a good chance the Iraq's would have gotten rid of Saddam-on their own, like lots of dictators eventually go. The same goes with Syria. Syria's not a "threat to us" okay we can argue that defensively for the Syrian people. So than what that means is that we must have a good shot at seeing the Syrian people will be better off at going in. We must see there's that way. That's the issue. The fact is Syria could easily be made worse. We could end up killing 1.more civilians 2. more of our soldiers 3. Putting our children in more debt and for what for the Syrians to be worse off? I.e not creating more damage is an issue.
May 29 new
So the situation isn't just "win' but leaving the situation better than before. Its immoral to go into a nation that never attacked you, and is no real threat to you, and bomb them just because their dictator is mean. With no real plans or no real good case that you will leave someone-better in the long wrong. Its absolutely immoral. And Japan attacked us, Germany declared war on us. Two very different scenarios than what went down in Iraq.
May 29 new
And then one can bring up the "legitimate authority" with Iraq too. That our country is not the policeman of the world. Nobody else has given us this authority and its not like we treat all dictators the same. Mubarak Egypts last dictator hired rapists too and we gave him all kinds of money. I'm sorry its very very dangerous when one nation is given that kind of power over the rest of the worlds, such a thing is EASILY abused and it is a slippery slope. It should have been the UN and the UN alone who made that decision.
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