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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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May 21 new
(quote) Marc-313980 said: Thank you for your sons' service to our country, John.

One thing I might disagree with you on is that I don't think it's necessarily totally black and white as to who the good guys are and who the bad guys are in Syria (or Libya and Egypt before). The rebels are in league with Al-qaeda. They've also been known to persecute Christians. So it's more like the bad guys vs. the bad guys over there, unfortunately.
I will let my sons know that he has support; thanks!

I appreciate your comment Marc. I agree it's a big mess and getting worse. I am no fan of many of the rebels there either. But the way I see it, and yes, black and white is what keeps me straight, lets remove the biggest thug FIRST. If the flakes on the rebel side know that we'd go in to restore order to the neighborhood, and Russia can go pound sand for siding with Assad, well, maybe all concerned will realize the time of day. Perhaps the Russians can be convinced to do the right thing and come in from the other side to diffuse and disarm, and we can meet them in the middle.

I have said my peace, and now I will let this thread go. I don't need to armchair quarterback this thing. We have some pretty competent generals out there that could do quite well without my commentary.
May 25 new
(quote) John-971967 said: If we want peace in the world, and expect men, good men, to deliver it, then why are we pandering to those thugs who can't grasp the concept?
There will never be 'peace' as long as people are running around, toppling regimes they think are 'bad' in favor of some abstract 'good' that exists only in the mind of some Fox News pundits. And there certainly won't be 'good men' arising from this. It hasn't happened in Iraq or Libya and it won't happen in Syria or anywhere else.

What you will take away is any semblance of order and stability they might have. And wipe out the rest of the actual, historical Christians who have lived there since the beginning, as opposed to the John Hagees who cheer for it. Thug who does bad things > Islamic mob anarchy. Not knocking them off is not pandering to them, it's a recognition of cold, hard reality. If they fall, they fall, but for heaven's sake don't push.

I hope to God the clowns in Washington don't send troops to support the continuing slaughter of Arab Christians and the overall collapse into anarchy in the Middle East. Because that's one thing you could say for Assad or Saddam; they did keep the crazies from completely overrunning us. Now, in the wonderful age of majority-rules-by-gunpoint nobody is safe, Sunni, Shia, Christian or Jew.
May 25 new
(quote) Chris-906154 said: There will never be 'peace' as long as people are running around, toppling regimes they think are 'bad' in favor of some abstract 'good' that exists only in the mind of some Fox News pundits. And there certainly won't be 'good men' arising from this. It hasn't happened in Iraq or Libya and it won't happen in Syria or anywhere else.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment Chris.

There are many good men that served in the middle east. These men today are the backbone of what will become quality leadership in 20 years. I'm just waiting for our current president to get some backbone. Then maybe his command could put a temporary stop on a lot of injustice; stop abortion, etc instead of imposing gun controls that then embolden tyranny.

Second, my reaction is not based on some abstract notion (I don't watch FOX), but rather on the principle proven over and over that good and able men will protect the vulnerable. If we talk peace but never remove impediments to it, then what have we? Oh, abstraction?!

I don't believe there will ever be total and lasting peace in the world until after He comes. Show me a time in history contrary to this! Only Christ can deliver it, and when He does it will be accepted not out of recognition and respect but because of His POWER over evil.

Thugs only understand others with greater power than theirs. Able men should not be begging for peace and understanding and expecting a thug to convert when he is hell-bent. I am not seeking peace with those folks.

Are we not already at war?
May 25 new
(quote) Chris-906154 said: ...

What you will take away is any semblance of order and stability they might have. ...
hmmm...pretty sure that "order" and "stability" was what Emperor Palpatine promised the galaxy...
May 26 new
First of all I know here are plenty of good men in the Middleast, But that doesn't make what went down in Iraq okay. Iraq was wrong-dead wrong. As for protecting the vulnerable, do you realize how many Iraq civilians died in that conflict? And they were a nation that was pretty much defenseless against us. When I talk about defenseless I mean they didn't have the weapons to for example bomb New York the way Baghdad got bombed. We Americans have been so blessed by the Lord not to have a war on our soil since the Civil War. But it also means that we have no clue what we unleash on others. And yes we have men fight in battles ,but something tells me even they would feel different if their children were getting bombed. In general though the United States tends to shy away from nations that could fight back, see North Korea for an example. I was tentatively okay with Afghanstan since they were harboring Bin Laden. But Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 except for them being a Muslim nation... And as for why make peace when the only thing the understand is fighting. First of all, your the one not understanding the nature of the enemy. You can't stop terrorism completely its the weapon of the powerless. Second Bin Laden wanted us to attack Muslim countries in the Middle East. Its what he was hoping we'd do. Why because he figured in the chaos, he and Islamicists could use the opportunity to topple governments like Saddam's. Also because he wanted to stir up anger in the Middle East and rise up Muslims against the United States. So that more folks would join his cause. Sometimes, war is necessary. But very rarely. As Christians we are commanded to seek peace by our Lord. We are also commanded to turn the other cheek. Why because you cannot fight evil with evil. Its the love of Christ that's going to change hearts and minds. Those who live by the sword will absolutely die by it. All we did in Iraq is create a further cycle of violence.
May 26 new
Essential, Bin Laden with 9/11 was the matador taking a red flag and waving it around in front of the bull us. HIs plan is not only to use the chaos to take over those nations.. But he thinks he can get us into so many foreign wars he can bankrupt us. He wanted to bankrupt us-like he feels he bankrupted the Soviet Union. So if it makes you feel better to go on these foreign adventures, go for it. But understand it was what Bin Laden wanted.
May 26 new
(quote) Rebecca-654746 said: .... As for protecting the vulnerable, do you realize how many Iraq civilians died in that conflict? And they were a nation that was pretty much defenseless against us. When I talk about defenseless I mean they didn't have the weapons to for example bomb New York the way Baghdad got bombed. .... But it also means that we have no clue what we unleash on others. And yes we have men fight in battles ,but something tells me even they would feel different if their children were getting bombed. In general though the United States tends to shy away from nations that could fight back, see North Korea for an example. I was tentatively okay with Afghanstan since they were harboring Bin Laden. ... You can't stop terrorism completely its the weapon of the powerless. ... As Christians we are commanded to seek peace by our Lord. We are also commanded to turn the other cheek. Why because you cannot fight evil with evil. Its the love of Christ that's going to change hearts and minds. Those who live by the sword will absolutely die by it. All we did in Iraq is create a further cycle of violence.
Okay, lots and lots of problems here.

First, I would ask if you realize how many Iraqi civilians died in the "normal course of business" of Saddam Hussein running Iraq? Was it okay for people to be murdered just as long as it doesn't happen on western TV?

Your discussion of Iraq's weaponry is completely irrelevant to anything.

Are you at all aware of the fact that the bombs that were, and to this day are, going off in Baghdad are ones detonated by the Iraqis themselves, not the U.S. or its allies?

I have no idea where you get the notion "we have no clue what we unleash..." I think you will find there are plenty of people in this country have more than just a clue on what goes on in wars. Likewise, your assertion that "they would feel different if their children..." has more to do with your own personal emotional reaction to what is going on than any objective evaluation of the situation.

Your assertion that the U.S. shies away from nations that could fight back is patently absurd on its face, and your use of N. Korea as an example is just bizarre. I suggest you look up exactly who it was we were fighting in the Korean War.

I have no idea why you keep referencing 9/11 in conjunction with Iraq. Everybody knows that they are not connected. Blatant lies of his opponents to the contrary notwithstanding, neither Bush nor anybody else of importance in his administration said that Iraq was about 9/11. This is just a red herring used by people trying to smear him.

Like it or not, the Church does promulgate a Just War Theory. It therefore follows that Christians are NOT prohibited from fighting in wars. We can of course disagree whether this particular was just, but there is no blanket prohibition.

Your contention that we "created" a further cycle of violence ignores literally thousands of years of history. The various ethnic groups in Iraq have been killing each other for much longer than the U.S. has even existed as a nation. Again, just because it was easy to tune out and ignore the fact that the Sunis under Saddam were murdering Shiites and Kurds by the hundreds and thousands and dumping them in mass graves in no way alters the reality that it happened.
May 26 new
I was talking about US inserting a cycle of violence against us. Inciting more Muslims to want to kill more Americans. And no kidding that Sunnis/Shia have been killing each other for centuries, which is exactly why would we want to insert ourselves in that brawl. Its exactly why in the Middle East, they have the governments they have. Strong man, strong armed dictators. And while they aren't great, they are better than massive civil wars. Guess what wasn't happening under Saddam-daily bombings hurting civilians. Mainly it was the political prisoners in dictatorships that get killed. Not saying its okay buts its certainly better than worrying about your home with your children in it getting bombed. Once again the Iraqis wanted to get rid of Saddam-that was THEIR business, and at least it would give folks who know the situation to prepare. And as for just war, yes the Church has just war. Although part of just war is being able to minimize the cost to civilians. And also you have to have exhausted ALL peace opportunities-i.e last resort. And you have to be reasonably sure that you will have a successful situation afterwards. The Church though feels the modern warfare is such that calls in to question if just war is even possible now. However one thing is very clear while the Church thought Afghanstan was potentially just, it was very clear that Iraq. Was w
May 26 new
Iraq was not a just war. Pope John Paul II we are taking people crying for bread and giving them bombs. I never said that war in itself was never just. I said that war was never the top option, and going to war against a nation that never attacked us is wrong. Thinking you can bring democracy at the point of the sword is wrong.
May 26 new
And I 100% think that Americans would change their opinion on collateral damage and bomb raids, if they experienced them here in the United States. have As for North Korea-Korean war was a proxy war a long time ago. The point is you had the North Koreans saying yes we have nuclear weapons-here they are! And Saddam saying we don't have nuclear weapons-and who was the one who got attacked. The one without them. Which is why if I were Iranian, I'd be wanting my government to get them.... Get them and your left alone.
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