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May 9th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: You were advised incorrectly. The basic rule is that a person who has been married previo...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

You were advised incorrectly. The basic rule is that a person who has been married previously, regardless of circumstances, to a person of the opposite sex who is still alive must receivea decree or determination of some sort from a Catholic marriage tribunal before they are eligible to marry in the Church.

Note that factors such as either's faith or baptismal status at the time or where the marriage ceremony was conducted or by whom, may affect the type of process required, but they never eliminate the need for a determination from the tribunal.

As Chelsea noted, there are some limited circumstances where valid but non-sacramental marriages (i.e., those where at least one of the spouses was not a baptized Christian) may be dissolved. Because all dissolutions must be handled by the Roman Curia, most tribunals will investigate whether the marriage was valid before petitioning for dissolution.

So, as far as CM is concerned, based on what you have indicated here, you are divorced and not free to marry in the Church. Your next step is to contact a marriage tribunal to determine how to proceed with a petition for annulment or dissolution. Note that many parish priests are not very well-informed of the canonical details regarding marriage and it is not uncommon to receive inaccurate information from them.

--hide--

Dear Jerry

At the time of conversion, I provided an Affidavit with the court stamp (court confirmed that I was a Muslim) and the Church confirmed and stamped it. It is mentioned in that Affidavit that I have been Muslim and non-baptized and I got baptized only 1 and half year ago, according to that Affidavit Church says that I'm free to get married in the Church and I'm not a divorced Catholic. Do I need more documents?

May 9th 2013 new

(Quote) Bahar-937890 said: Dear Jerry At the time of conversion, I provided an Affidavit with the court stamp (court ...
(Quote) Bahar-937890 said:

Dear Jerry

At the time of conversion, I provided an Affidavit with the court stamp (court confirmed that I was a Muslim) and the Church confirmed and stamped it. It is mentioned in that Affidavit that I have been Muslim and non-baptized and I got baptized only 1 and half year ago, according to that Affidavit Church says that I'm free to get married in the Church and I'm not a divorced Catholic. Do I need more documents?

--hide--

Who/what is the "Church"? And in what country? I'm only familiar with the process in the United States, where the declaration must come from a marriage tribunal.

It appears you are saying the process so far has all been administrative (verifying that you were not baptized at the time, etc.) without any interviews of yourself and your ex-husband regarding your understanding of marriage, your intentions at the time you were married, etc. This does not sound right, as it is quite possible for two Muslims to have a valid marriage.

Here is a book that is very highly recommended you may want to see f you can obtain:

www.amazon.com

May 9th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: Who/what is the "Church"? And in what country? I'm only familiar with the p...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

Who/what is the "Church"? And in what country? I'm only familiar with the process in the United States, where the declaration must come from a marriage tribunal.

It appears you are saying the process so far has all been administrative (verifying that you were not baptized at the time, etc.) without any interviews of yourself and your ex-husband regarding your understanding of marriage, your intentions at the time you were married, etc. This does not sound right, as it is quite possible for two Muslims to have a valid marriage.

Here is a book that is very highly recommended you may want to see f you can obtain:

www.amazon.com

--hide--

The Cathedral Catholic Church, India (not my parish priest). I submitted my divorce document, in that document mine and my ex's religions are mentioned "Shea,Islam". And the date of the divorce and the reasons are mentioned in the official divorce document. Interview is not possible, for I'm a convert and my life is in danger. They rely on the divorce document and it's date and the divorce reason.

But I'll ask them to check my documents again!

May 9th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: Who/what is the "Church"? And in what country? I'm only familiar with the p...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

Who/what is the "Church"? And in what country? I'm only familiar with the process in the United States, where the declaration must come from a marriage tribunal.

It appears you are saying the process so far has all been administrative (verifying that you were not baptized at the time, etc.) without any interviews of yourself and your ex-husband regarding your understanding of marriage, your intentions at the time you were married, etc. This does not sound right, as it is quite possible for two Muslims to have a valid marriage.

Here is a book that is very highly recommended you may want to see f you can obtain:

www.amazon.com

--hide--

Understanding of what!? Muslim marriage? It is possible for "Two" Muslims to have a valid marriage, but I'm Catholic. He has signed and confirmed in official divorce document that he is a Muslim, me too (in 2004). You mean I should convert to Islam again and get married to him (as second wife) because 10 years ago when I was a Muslim I got married to him and gave him divorce which is allowed in Islam; no matter what the reason is. That time I was not Catholic. Then according to the United States' law: people from other religions are not able to convert to Catholic religion because they have done some things allowed in those religions which are not accepted by Church's teachings! Are you trying to tell me that now I'm a Catholic with a Valid Muslim Marriage?! And I can't become a Nun too!? So why did I convert?! In this religion I am nothing. I'm not allowed to get married and I can't become a Nun too! I'm only a married Muslim!

Oh God, this is the first time that my faith is getting faded. I shouldn't have converted? It doesn't make sence.

Since I have got baptized, as a Catholic I have been faithful and I have not done anything against Church's teachings.

Anyway, thanks

Bye and God Bless All of You

May 9th 2013 new

I think there was a bit of a communication breakdown.

May 10th 2013 new

Hi Bahar, Jerry is not saying these things, he just wants to make sure that you have the correct annulment through the tribunal, which is part of the diocese. He means that because you both were Muslim at the time of the marriage, the marriage could still be valid because the Church recognizes other marriages of other religions when they are performed with certain criteria. However, Jerry is saying that you might still have grounds for a dissolution even if the marriage was valid, but this could take much more time to get. He is saying that it might be less time consuming for the tribunal to investigate the validity of the marriage instead of a dissolution.

You made the right choice in converting to Catholicism. We need brave Catholics like you to help keep us from taking our Faith and our Church for granted. God bless you, you are in my prayers.

May 10th 2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: I think there was a bit of a communication breakdown.
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:

I think there was a bit of a communication breakdown.

--hide--
Indeed there was, Chelsea, and Bahar has "left the room...."

She is now a baptized Catholic, but at the time of her marriage she was of the Muslim faith, and that's part of what caused confusion on her part and left her upset.

Let's hope she remains strong in her Faith and follows-up on Jerry's advice.

May 10th 2013 new

It is my fervent prayer that Bahar will not be discouraged by all these. Chelsea is quite right about the Pauline Privilege as the answer to Bahar’s case.

The Pauline Privilege recognizes that certain marriages, while valid, were not sacramental (not “Christian”). A marriage between two unbaptized persons is not a sacramental marriage. A Muslim marriage is called a valid natural marriage.

Some have called the Pauline Privilege a “Catholic divorce.” It is not. A Pauline Privilege is the dissolution of a purely natural (not sacramental) marriage which had been contracted between two non-Christians, one of whom has since become a Christian. The Pauline Privilege is so-named because it is based upon the apostle Paul's words in I Corinthians. The Pauline Privilege is no simple formula, and is certainly not a divorce. Neither Christ nor the Church accepts divorce, and as we have seen, marriage is truly sacred. Some marriages however, were not sacred from their beginning. In these marriages, neither party was a Christian or a Catholic. When at a later time, one partner converts and is baptized, questions about the marriage may arise. The Pauline Privilege differs from an annulment because it dissolves a real but natural marriage. An annulment is a declaration that there never was a valid marriage to begin with.”

According to the Pauline Privilege, the Catholic Church can dissolve a marriage bond, allowing the Catholic party to re-marry, if:

-Both persons were not baptized at the time of their wedding. Marriage originally not sacramental.

-One party has been baptized, but the other remains unbaptized. Marriage remains not sacramental.

-The unbaptized person departs physically by divorce or desertion, or morally by making married life unbearable for the baptized person. Just cause for the dissolution.

-The unbaptized person refuses to be baptized or to live peacefully with the baptized person. Unbaptized person is asked.

-Civil divorce has been granted by the state.

Requirements may vary depending on the diocese where she intends to remarry, but here is a brief outline of the stages involved in a Pauline Privilege of the faith case:

-Submission of the Petition for the Pauline Privilege and required documentation;

-Questionnaire sent to the Petitioner via the Procurator/Advocate;

-Collection of the deposition of the Respondent (if deemed necessary) and the testimony of witnesses regarding the non-baptism of the parties. The non-baptism of both parties must be verified;

-Review of the evidence by the Tribunal;

-The Decree granting the Pauline Privilege is issued authorizing the Petitioner’s baptism and declaring that after his/her baptism, the party is free to contract marriage within the Roman Catholic Church.

www.toledodiocese.org

Bahar did mention about getting an Affidavit stamped by the Church at which the latter said that she was free to marry. She also mentioned that she submitted her official divorce papers to the Church. For all we know it could be the Pauline Privilege Decree version of the Cathedral Catholic Church in India that she underwent.

We must also note that Catholic churches in India fully understand the predicament of Muslims converting to Christianity. As Bahar mentioned, her life is in danger. Converts to Christianity are getting killed, harassed, penalized, bullied and persecuted. That is why I can understand why it is hard for her to get her ex-husband to cooperate in the Church interviews and interrogation. www.wikiislam.net

In conclusion, Bahar’s marital status is technically single and free to marry (provided it was Decree of Pauline Privilege that was granted). We can't say she is divorced or annulled since the the Pauline Privilege is not a divorce nor an annulment.

Bahar, if you are able to read this, please know that we are praying for you and that God totally loves you. We both know as advocates of the Divine Mercy “ that in difficult moments, we must not despair, nor become despondent, but with great confidence, submit ourselves to His holy will, which is Love and Mercy Itself….”

Peace, Love & Prayers Dove hug

May 10th 2013 new

(Quote) Rosemarie-744159 said: It is my fervent prayer that Bahar will not be discouraged by all these. Chelsea is quite rig...
(Quote) Rosemarie-744159 said:

It is my fervent prayer that Bahar will not be discouraged by all these. Chelsea is quite right about the Pauline Privilege as the answer to Bahar’s case.

The Pauline Privilege recognizes that certain marriages, while valid, were not sacramental (not “Christian”). A marriage between two unbaptized persons is not a sacramental marriage. A Muslim marriage is called a valid natural marriage.

Some have called the Pauline Privilege a “Catholic divorce.” It is not. A Pauline Privilege is the dissolution of a purely natural (not sacramental) marriage which had been contracted between two non-Christians, one of whom has since become a Christian. The Pauline Privilege is so-named because it is based upon the apostle Paul's words in I Corinthians. The Pauline Privilege is no simple formula, and is certainly not a divorce. Neither Christ nor the Church accepts divorce, and as we have seen, marriage is truly sacred. Some marriages however, were not sacred from their beginning. In these marriages, neither party was a Christian or a Catholic. When at a later time, one partner converts and is baptized, questions about the marriage may arise. The Pauline Privilege differs from an annulment because it dissolves a real but natural marriage. An annulment is a declaration that there never was a valid marriage to begin with.”

According to the Pauline Privilege, the Catholic Church can dissolve a marriage bond, allowing the Catholic party to re-marry, if:

-Both persons were not baptized at the time of their wedding. Marriage originally not sacramental.

-One party has been baptized, but the other remains unbaptized. Marriage remains not sacramental.

-The unbaptized person departs physically by divorce or desertion, or morally by making married life unbearable for the baptized person. Just cause for the dissolution.

-The unbaptized person refuses to be baptized or to live peacefully with the baptized person. Unbaptized person is asked.

-Civil divorce has been granted by the state.

Requirements may vary depending on the diocese where she intends to remarry, but here is a brief outline of the stages involved in a Pauline Privilege of the faith case:

-Submission of the Petition for the Pauline Privilege and required documentation;

-Questionnaire sent to the Petitioner via the Procurator/Advocate;

-Collection of the deposition of the Respondent (if deemed necessary) and the testimony of witnesses regarding the non-baptism of the parties. The non-baptism of both parties must be verified;

-Review of the evidence by the Tribunal;

-The Decree granting the Pauline Privilege is issued authorizing the Petitioner’s baptism and declaring that after his/her baptism, the party is free to contract marriage within the Roman Catholic Church.

www.toledodiocese.org

Bahar did mention about getting an Affidavit stamped by the Church at which the latter said that she was free to marry. She also mentioned that she submitted her official divorce papers to the Church. For all we know it could be the Pauline Privilege Decree version of the Cathedral Catholic Church in India that she underwent.

We must also note that Catholic churches in India fully understand the predicament of Muslims converting to Christianity. As Bahar mentioned, her life is in danger. Converts to Christianity are getting killed, harassed, penalized, bullied and persecuted. That is why I can understand why it is hard for her to get her ex-husband to cooperate in the Church interviews and interrogation. www.wikiislam.net

In conclusion, Bahar’s marital status is technically single and free to marry (provided it was Decree of Pauline Privilege that was granted). We can't say she is divorced or annulled since the the Pauline Privilege is not a divorce nor an annulment.

Bahar, if you are able to read this, please know that we are praying for you and that God totally loves you. We both know as advocates of the Divine Mercy “ that in difficult moments, we must not despair, nor become despondent, but with great confidence, submit ourselves to His holy will, which is Love and Mercy Itself….”

Peace, Love & Prayers

--hide--
Little is known about the Pauline Privilege, especially in the United States, but it indeed exists. To my knowledge, it's not a quick process to go through, and it can be complicated.

Bahar's actual marital status could probably be considered "divorced", because of the element of the civil matter and civil law. She needs to meet with someone who is aware of the Privilege and can guide her properly. We don't know the exact nature of the documents now in her possession and that's part of what caused some doubt and confusion here.

Unfortunately, she terminated her membership but let's hope that she is still watching in the background. No doubt she is frustrated about the whole situation.

May 10th 2013 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said: Little is known about the Pauline Privilege, especially in the United States, but it indeed exists....
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

Little is known about the Pauline Privilege, especially in the United States, but it indeed exists. To my knowledge, it's not a quick process to go through, and it can be complicated.

Bahar's actual marital status could probably be considered "divorced", because of the element of the civil matter and civil law. She needs to meet with someone who is aware of the Privilege and can guide her properly. We don't know the exact nature of the documents now in her possession and that's part of what caused some doubt and confusion here.

Unfortunately, she terminated her membership but let's hope that she is still watching in the background. No doubt she is frustrated about the whole situation.

--hide--


Yes, I would highly suggest that Bahar would ask the Catherdral Catholic Church in India if the "free to marry" document that she received is indeed the Pauline Privilege Decree. They might have a different system or requirement in Islamic countries, considering how difficult it is to get a response from the non-Christian ex-partner, plus the possible danger it can result to. She can show the Church the requirements I mentioned just to make sure if it is the Pauline decree. Important thing is, there truly is HOPE for Bahar.

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