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Discussion related to living as a Catholic in the single state of life. As long as a topic is being discussed from the perspective of a single Catholic then it will be on-topic.

Tobias and Sarah's story is from the Book of Tobit, and his journey is guided by Saint Raphael.
Learn More: Tobias & Sarah as led by Saint Raphael

May 12th 2013 new

(Quote) Marge-938695 said: 1. It's not insignificant. How would men like it if women never listened to or acknowledged w...
(Quote) Marge-938695 said:

1. It's not insignificant. How would men like it if women never listened to or acknowledged what they said? That's part of treating people like people, instead of like things.

2. Yes, her reaction was energetic because that skill is maddeningly rare.

You have two sisters, John. I'm sure you listen to them, and I'll bet they make sure that you do. Why does all this surprise you?

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I agree Marge. Sometimes a woman can tell a man what she needs sooo many times and yet still he often will persist in doing whatever he wants which is a red flag that he is selfish. We all deserve to be loved unselfishly. Men truly need to realize that loving unselfishly is the path to holiness and pleasing God. Love is NEVER selfish.

May 12th 2013 new

(Quote) Shara-929649 said: I agree Marge. Sometimes a woman can tell a man what she needs sooo many times and yet s...
(Quote) Shara-929649 said:

I agree Marge. Sometimes a woman can tell a man what she needs sooo many times and yet still he often will persist in doing whatever he wants which is a red flag that he is selfish. We all deserve to be loved unselfishly. Men truly need to realize that loving unselfishly is the path to holiness and pleasing God. Love is NEVER selfish.

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So true. My ex NEVER listened to what as important to my heart. It was very painful and the source of many arguments.

May 12th 2013 new

(Quote) Rachel-731570 said: So true. My ex NEVER listened to what as important to my heart. It was very painful...
(Quote) Rachel-731570 said:


So true. My ex NEVER listened to what as important to my heart. It was very painful and the source of many arguments.

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I think that is very painful because not being loved in the way you need to be loved can result in one feeling unloved or rejected. No one deserves that. We all deserve to be loved well and to have a love that is a foretaste of God's love and a love that leads us closer to heaven. We should never settle for less or allow someone to love us in a way that is less than we deserve. Love is supposed to build us up and not be one-sided. Some people are incapable of love because they choose to remain selfish or because they have lived lives of self-indulgence for so long that it is hard for them to break the habit of pleasing only themselves. Love should be a self-less giving from both sides. That is the true plan of God. I think that men who can do this are a rare gem and should be cherished as such. It is also a measure of the depth of a person's relationship with God when they can love unselfishly. We need holy men who are willing to die to self. Men I know that you can step up to the plate and be the kind of men that we need. It just takes effort and prayer.

May 12th 2013 new

Well said, Shara. You're on the track of "The Five Love Languages" - I wish I'd read that many years ago... I encourage my sons to read and embrace it.
I also try to empty my cup on a regular basis, so I can be cured of my insanity (Avatar reference :). Mutual acknowledgment is at the heart of relationships. I SEE you, is a powerful concept.

May 12th 2013 new

(Quote) David-870960 said: Well said, Shara. You're on the track of "The Five Love Languages" - I wish I'd...
(Quote) David-870960 said:

Well said, Shara. You're on the track of "The Five Love Languages" - I wish I'd read that many years ago... I encourage my sons to read and embrace it.
I also try to empty my cup on a regular basis, so I can be cured of my insanity (Avatar reference :). Mutual acknowledgment is at the heart of relationships. I SEE you, is a powerful concept.

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David good for you as a man and good for you as a father. It is so important for men to be taught early the concept of selfless love as sometimes when they get too old or have lived too long a life of selfishness it becomes almost impossible for them to break the habit making them extremely hard people to love. Not teaching men to be good men early is a disservice to them. Again hats off to you for being a good example and a good father.

May 12th 2013 new

A former boyfriend would often tell me stories or bits of information that he had told me before, and tell me in a way that showed me he had no idea that he was repeating himself. I came to realize that he shared these things with many others, that it was of no significance that he was telling me the story--I was just an audience, an anonymous audience. This attitude is hurtful.

May 12th 2013 new

(Quote) Kathy-635104 said: Probing questions as per your example indeed show that you listen and are interested. It may even...
(Quote) Kathy-635104 said:

Probing questions as per your example indeed show that you listen and are interested. It may even cause such a woman to expect that you won't forget your anniversary or her favorite perfume. Listening well is a sign of respect.

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I'm not sure that I often ask probing questions, but I do interrupt to make sure that I understand a woman when the point she is making is not easy to grasp in one pass. In such a case I would think it more likely that a woman might be impressed because everything is fresh in the present moment unlike my original example where the point recalled was from the much dimmed past.

Thanks for the reminder that missing an anniversary and can turn a woman into an adversary and that forgetting her favorite perfuming can leave her fuming. shhh Blinded by love

May 12th 2013 new

(Quote) Marge-938695 said: 1. It's not insignificant. How would men like it if women never listened to or acknowledged w...
(Quote) Marge-938695 said:

1. It's not insignificant. How would men like it if women never listened to or acknowledged what they said? That's part of treating people like people, instead of like things.

2. Yes, her reaction was energetic because that skill is maddeningly rare.

You have two sisters, John. I'm sure you listen to them, and I'll bet they make sure that you do. Why does all this surprise you?

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1. Never listening would be significant, but I would not have expected that recalling that a woman's uncle had a physical condition would strike her so forcefully given that whether I did or did not remember that particular fact was probably not important to her. I see now that what moved her was the more general indication that I did indeed listen to her.

2. You use of "maddening rare" in this context says much about the human condition I'd surmise. Is there any great (or even less than great) novel, play or movie that has explored this dimension

One of my sisters has broken off contact with all relatives for about ten years. I talk to the other by telephone from time to time.

May 12th 2013 new

(Quote) Shara-929649 said: I think the key thing is loving someone in the way they need to be loved not the way you want to ...
(Quote) Shara-929649 said:

I think the key thing is loving someone in the way they need to be loved not the way you want to love them. I think that many men, not trying to generalize but women are naturally more giving, can think that they need to treat a woman in the way that would work for them or is convenient for them. However, the more loving and less selfish thing is to pay attention to what the other person needs and what they are telling you they need. It is a great clue to the character of a person; their ability to love well and unselfishly. If they can love a person in the way they need to be loved even if it is not convenient or even if it requires dying to themself it is clue that they have the ability to be a good partner. This is the way that God calls us to love and loves us in turn. Human love is a foretaste of love and is also a means of dying to self which is essential for holiness. It is a rare gem of a man who can love in this way. May all women be blessed with such a man.

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The selfish-unselfish problem, or rather the healthful kind of self-love vs. the unhealthful kind, is a complicated labyrinth not easy to unravel. Your view can make it seem that the best kind of man is a human being with a man's body and a woman's psychology, but it is unlikely that most women actually want to marry one of those.

As for myself, I would want women to be selfish in choosing whom they want to date and possibly to marry. For one thing, it would ultimately not be good for me to be with someone who had to force herself "in the name of charity and unselfishness" to go out with me or to stay with me. I could elaborate, but will bow to those who disdain lengthy replies - after making one more point.

It can be great folly to interpret biblical passages in isolation and so I admit that the meaning I seem to imply next regarding the selfish vs. unselfish debate may be challenged. In the Gospels, when Christ makes some point about making a sacrifice for the good of a neighbor, He often (even always?) adds words such as, "because your reward will be great in heaven"; that is, He recommends something that is ultimately better for the doer than would be the case if the sacrificial action were withheld. scratchchin

May 12th 2013 new

(Quote) John-184825 said: The selfish-unselfish problem, or rather the healthful kind of self-love vs. the unhealthful kind,...
(Quote) John-184825 said:

The selfish-unselfish problem, or rather the healthful kind of self-love vs. the unhealthful kind, is a complicated labyrinth not easy to unravel. Your view can make it seem that the best kind of man is a human being with a man's body and a woman's psychology, but it is unlikely that most women actually want to marry one of those.

As for myself, I would want women to be selfish in choosing whom they want to date and possibly to marry. For one thing, it would ultimately not be good for me to be with someone who had to force herself "in the name of charity and unselfishness" to go out with me or to stay with me. I could elaborate, but will bow to those who disdain lengthy replies - after making one more point.

It can be great folly to interpret biblical passages in isolation and so I admit that the meaning I seem to imply next regarding the selfish vs. unselfish debate may be challenged. In the Gospels, when Christ makes some point about making a sacrifice for the good of a neighbor, He often (even always?) adds words such as, "because your reward will be great in heaven"; that is, He recommends something that is ultimately better for the doer than would be the case if the sacrificial action were withheld.

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Are you saying that only women are capable of being considerate and unselfish? I think that if you are you are doing a disservice to the good men who are capable of these actions. Every human being natural tendencies are narcissistic. To be considerate and unselfish is a choice that either sex can make. Women because of the nurturing element of their personalities often find it easier. It does not mean that men are not capable of it and indeed there are many examples of it in good Catholic men.

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